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Old July 27, 2011, 09:43 AM   #101
MikeNice81
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Let's try keeping this discussion realistic and intelligent. That statement is neither.
It is a common saying in North Carolina. It is very similar to saying they will lock you up and throw away the key. It means they will have no reservation in giving you the full punishment allowed by law.

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So in NC I have to actually have someone cause me great bodily harm before defense is justified?
Defense does not default to gun. There is a whole use of force continuim spelled out in the NC CCH manual.

Quote:
What's to say someone will stop at a "busted nose?"
Nothing. That is why you have several options in the use of force continuim as described by the state. Untill you are imminent fear of grave bodily harm or death (and you believe another person of reasonable firmness would agree) lethal force is a no go. When that fear becomes reasonable varies. For Brock Lesner it is very different than it would be for Betty White.

I think most states have a reasonable fear clause. However a punch is usually considerred simple assault unless there is an age, physical ability, or disparity of force issue.

It would be like a guy bumping your fender at a stop light and you responding by pushing his car off of a fifty foot cliff.
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Old July 27, 2011, 12:04 PM   #102
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^+1 ...excellent, concise description of the details, Mike.
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Old July 27, 2011, 12:38 PM   #103
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It is a common saying in North Carolina. It is very similar to saying they will lock you up and throw away the key. It means they will have no reservation in giving you the full punishment allowed by law.
Point taken. Tone of response duly appreciated.

Quote:
Untill you are imminent fear of grave bodily harm or death (and you believe another person of reasonable firmness would agree) lethal force is a no go. When that fear becomes reasonable varies.
I feel we're somewhat going around in circles. An angry person shouting threats as in the OP (especially if they are saying they will kill me as the case has become) and advancing toward me with raised fists has me in reasonable suspicion of being in danger of great bodily harm.
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Old July 27, 2011, 12:54 PM   #104
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An angry person shouting threats as in the OP (especially if they are saying they will kill me as the case has become) and advancing toward me with raised fists has me in reasonable suspicion of being in danger of great bodily harm.
No.

You might have such a fear.

But it is not a reasonable fear.

You could die from a single punch in the nose. It has happened before. Very, very, very rarely. Every year, thousands of guys get punched in the nose, and they don't die from it.

Your teenager could die from playing football. It has happened before. Statistically, that's more likely to happen than it is for you to die from a single punch in the nose. It's very, very rare. And every year, thousands of teenagers play football and they don't die from it.

It would not be reasonable for your teenager to respond to an incoming tackle by pulling out a gun and shooting the lineman. Not because that tackle can't kill him (such tackles can and have killed people). But because it's a disproportionate response to the actual danger.

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Old July 27, 2011, 01:39 PM   #105
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No.

You might have such a fear.

But it is not a reasonable fear.

You could die from a single punch in the nose. It has happened before. Very, very, very rarely. Every year, thousands of guys get punched in the nose, and they don't die from it.
Disagree.

I'm not talking about just getting killed from a punch. I'm talking about taking a bad beating, which is great bodily harm.

What is unreasonable about that?

No offense Pax, but that football analogy is rather questionable...
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Old July 27, 2011, 01:52 PM   #106
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AH.74,

You might want to read this website before proceeding with the argument you're making: http://useofforce.us

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Old July 27, 2011, 01:57 PM   #107
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I've read all that, Pax.

I disagree with your statement that it's unreasonable fear of great bodily harm. There's no need to treat me like I don't know anything, I know you're an "expert" around here.
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Old July 27, 2011, 02:25 PM   #108
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I'd note the defensible use of force is also closely tied to each specific state's statute and its relevant stare decisis.

For example. In NY the real standard (not just statute) might be that the GG may need to be attacked by multiple boxers carrying pickaxes, whereas in Texas the standard may be "he needed killin your honor."*

*Note this is an actual legal defense for wives in Texas, as verified by my Wife. The "He needed Killin" rule has been a fundamental bit of case law since the epic case Harriet Tweed (1839). At the time use of this phrase permitted wives to implement righteous wrath on their husbands in the form of horsewhips, horses, rattle snakes, and Colt Pattern Repeating pistols. Since that time it has been updated to include Chevy's, golf clubs, and Remington 870s. Texas husbands are nothing if not polite.

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Old July 27, 2011, 03:41 PM   #109
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AH.74,

Please forgive me for leaving the impression that I didn't think you knew anything. That was not why I posted that link! Just wanted to be sure that we had common ground for discussion, that was all -- and didn't want to insult you by reciting the basics if you already knew it, and didn't have time to type it all out right then anyway. Next time, I'll try to take a little more time to be sure the complete message is coming across rather than just throwing a link out there.

For the rest: yes, we disagree about the "reasonableness" of planning to meet a threatened fistfight with deadly force. It's possible that we disagree because we aren't envisioning the same circumstances. Here's the circumstance I envision:

1) The aggressor is roughly the same age as the good guy, and in roughly the same physical condition. The good guy is thus able to meet the threatened force from the aggressor with an equivalent level of force from himself.

2) The good guy has other options: he can apologize, he can retreat, etc.

Are these same two basics in place in your envisioned scenario?

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Old July 27, 2011, 04:03 PM   #110
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Pax- all is good, let's move on.

Quote:
For the rest: yes, we disagree about the "reasonableness" of planning to meet a threatened fistfight with deadly force. It's possible that we disagree because we aren't envisioning the same circumstances. Here's the circumstance I envision:

1) The aggressor is roughly the same age as the good guy, and in roughly the same physical condition. The good guy is thus able to meet the threatened force from the aggressor with an equivalent level of force from himself.
This is an assumption I have not made. I do not plan on getting into a fistfight, I do not want to meet the force. Why would I do that? I have not done anything to instigate, other than in the aggressor's mind.

Quote:
2) The good guy has other options: he can apologize, he can retreat, etc.
There's not a lot of time here. Someone is coming at you. You have time to say something, but will he hear it and acknowledge it? If not, you can back up but that will also only allow you so much- you can't turn your back, and you can't retreat forever.
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Old July 28, 2011, 12:28 PM   #111
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Your kidding...

Zinc, I really hope your joking..my fiancee is from Texas and she wants to move back there...
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Old July 28, 2011, 01:32 PM   #112
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An angry person shouting threats as in the OP (especially if they are saying they will kill me as the case has become) and advancing toward me with raised fists has me in reasonable suspicion of being in danger of great bodily harm.
There is a tremendous difference between "I am gonna kick your butt" and "I am gonna kill you". I don't see how "I am going to kill you" can be pervieved as anything other than a threat of death. While their apparent ability to carry through with their threat needs to be considered, I am willing to take someone at their word in this situation.
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Old July 28, 2011, 02:49 PM   #113
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Uhh, . . . folks, . . . we got a winner here, . . . SRH78 gets the "BINGO":

Quote:
I don't see how "I am going to kill you" can be pervieved as anything other than a threat of death. While their apparent ability to carry through with their threat needs to be considered, I am willing to take someone at their word in this situation.
My sentiments, . . . thoughts, . . . feelings, . . . exactly.

May God bless,
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Old July 29, 2011, 10:05 AM   #114
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I wanted to follow up on this thread.

Pax, you enter the discussion, make a ridiculous football analogy (I was being kind before in calling it questionable), suggest I should get into a fistfight with someone who has just announced they are going to kill me, and then exit from the thread?

How about a response? You asked me a question about a scenario I thought was poorly thought out. You're supposed to be an expert. I question your input into this thread.
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Old July 29, 2011, 10:20 AM   #115
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AH, Pax is busy and may not have had time to respond. Stay calm and stay respectful.

As far as your question. In NC (my frame of reference) violent and threatening language is not reason enough for lethal force. If somebody says "I'm going to kill you" and punches you in the face it is still questionable.

Did you try to use any other form of defense? Was there a great disapirity in the physical abilities of you and the agressor? Did he have a weapon? Was he capable of fufilling his threat? Is your physical conditioning so much better that you should have been able to stop the fight by detaining the attacker? Did you try to retreat from the scene? Did you try to verbally deescelate the situation? Could your actions have been reasonably seen as provocation?

There is a whole laundry list of questions you would need to answer. The average person isn't going to see a verbal threat as enough reason to pull a gun. Remember everything you do may be judged by police, public prosecutor, grand jury, and trial jury. You have to think about what those people in your area would find acceptable and reasonable.

I don't mean the guys at your hunting club. I mean the grocery store clerk, the first grade teacher, the cop, the preacher, and everybody else. When you pull that gun many of those people will be judging your actions. Some may very well decide your fate.

Defense does not default to gun. Make sure you have other options for dealing with a threat. It doesn't really matter that you don't want to meet the threat on a less lethal level. If you can have dealt with it in a less lethal manner and don't you put your post shooting defense in jeopardy.

A good idea is to learn all of your local laws regarding use of force. Plus learn the police department's use of force continuim. If your state has a civilian use of force continuim study that. Mix it all together and come up with the correct response based on your localities customs and laws.
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Last edited by MikeNice81; July 29, 2011 at 10:26 AM.
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Old July 29, 2011, 10:27 AM   #116
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Quote:
If somebody says "I'm going to kill you" and punches you in the face it is still questionable.
You keep those sorts in NC, m'kay?
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Old July 29, 2011, 10:29 AM   #117
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What sorts? You mean the sort that makes threats they can't complete or don't really plan to because they hope to intimidate or have high hopes?

Something more than a drive by remark would be nice.

Any use of lethal force will be questioned. An unarmed man punching you after saying "I'm going to kill you" makes your defense easier. How easy is questionable. If an unarmed man does that to Brock Lesner it is reasonably assumed that he could handle it without a gun unless a weapon is presented. If it happens to Betty White she can proably shoot before or right after the first strike.

I guess some people just don't get the high legal burden involved in shooting another human. It isn't a decision without consequence. Once you shoot your self defense scenario doesn't end. That is just the begining.
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Old July 29, 2011, 10:43 AM   #118
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Around here, folks tend to mean what they say .....it's a midwestern thing, I guess. If somebody rushes me telling me the are going to kill me, I'll take them at their word, and not wait around to see if they actually do it.

AOJP. Ability, Opportunity, Jeapordy, Preclusion. Reasonble fear of Death or Great Bodily Harm.

All are satified if a healthy young man rushes me screaming obscenities and announcing his intention to beat me to death. He would certainly have the ability, the opprtunity (provided he's within 21 feet), I am in jeapordy of same, and I certainly can't outrun him with little kids in tow.
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Old July 29, 2011, 10:45 AM   #119
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Well its good to see your were unharmed.
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Old July 29, 2011, 11:06 AM   #120
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I guess some people just don't get the high legal burden involved in shooting another human. It isn't a decision without consequence. Once you shoot your self defense scenario doesn't end. That is just the begining.
Oh, but I DO. It will cost me on the order of 50K to defend myself, not even considering the civil suit..........

The alternative, however, could cost me all I have, and all I would ever have had ......

It is a question that requires some thought. In such a situation, there is not time for deliberation. I have given it much thought, and come to a conclusion......

..... I choose Life.


It is the Legal System ("of the Lawyers, By the Lawyers, and For the Lawyers") that has obfusicated right and wrong, requiring their paid services to settle the obvious with endless "what if's" ..........

"What if he was bluffing?"
"What if he was just trying to intimidate you?"
"What if he just wanted your wallet/keys/to scare you?"

Here's a "what if": What if the guy had just minded his own and not assaulted me?

I think my chances are better with 12 reasonable people (even if they are surrounded by a pack of Lawyers!) than with a violent person threatening to kill me.
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Old July 29, 2011, 03:17 PM   #121
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Pax is busy and may not have had time to respond. Stay calm and stay respectful.
First of all, you're not a mod. It's not your place to tell me what to do.

Second, where was I not calm or disrespectful? Questioning what I see as questionable advice or commentary, staff member or not, is not disrespectful.

Third, she had plenty of time to come into the thread and it's been two days.

Quote:
Did you try to use any other form of defense? Was there a great disapirity in the physical abilities of you and the agressor? Did he have a weapon? Was he capable of fufilling his threat? Is your physical conditioning so much better that you should have been able to stop the fight by detaining the attacker? Did you try to retreat from the scene? Did you try to verbally deescelate the situation? Could your actions have been reasonably seen as provocation?
If you have been reading all the posts you would know that most of these questions have been discussed according to the information provided and then expanded upon by the OP- that would be questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 above. All clarified previously.

Regarding your 5th question- I am not obligated to detain someone who is attacking me, regardless of my physical conditioning. That is absurd.
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Old July 29, 2011, 04:53 PM   #122
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my $.02 and a question

What he did was absolutely the right thing to do. Especially with his child in tow. Protecting your child is the first obligation. What would have happened to the child had he decided to stand up to the noisemaker? What if he would have had to scuffle with the guy? What if he decided to shoot this a-hole? All with his child witnessing. How are you gonna protect your child if things went bad? He diffused the situation. Well played sir.

Now then...this is the reason all my vehicles have a collapsable baton within reach of the driver. Some times I carry it. It's about the size and weight of a roll of quarters when it's not extended. About 2ft long extended. And can turn the bad guys lights out.

One of the first things I was taught in my CC class was not to escalate the threat with your own. If the guy's just yelling and being a jack@$$. Good for him, he's a tough guy. Big deal. If he brings fist...you can to. Now if he jumps it up a notch, then you can defend yourself with your weapon. Anything else, a jury will see it as you now becoming the aggressor and a wild man with a gun too ready to kill an unarmed man.

The world is quickly turning into those who see certain aspects of society as it is...dangerous, and those that think the world is nothing but rainbows and butterflies.

Who's going to be on the jury?

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Old July 29, 2011, 05:08 PM   #123
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"" It is a question that requires some thought. In such a situation, there is not time for deliberation. I have given it much thought, and come to a conclusion......

..... I choose Life. ""

For about the next 15 minutes until the BG: strangles you, cuts you or pulls a gun and shoots... . . .
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Old July 29, 2011, 10:09 PM   #124
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I'm not sure AH74, but maybe mikenice meant draw with possibly not firing as "detain"?

still a good thread - my thing is there are many scenarios when you can fire at the crazed luney charging with fists. that being said, if I 'think' the man is just mouthing off(key phrase: 'if I think') than I am not going to fire or even draw just because he is a hothead and yelled: "I'll effin kill you" as an example.

If I felt it was necessary, I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself and fighting the guy isn't one of the options I would choose.

on a side note: this thread the last two days has made me think that maybe scebarios like this is partially why college campus carry is prohibited and/or also on military bases? I may be way off, but fistfights seem to happen more here and some CCW might just draw instead of gettin his butt kicked
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Old July 30, 2011, 12:39 AM   #125
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Quote:
If you have been reading all the posts you would know that most of these questions have been discussed according to the information provided and then expanded upon by the OP-
You said:
Quote:
I do not plan on getting into a fistfight, I do not want to meet the force. Why would I do that? I have not done anything to instigate, other than in the aggressor's mind.
You made it about you and not the OP. So, don't play the troll game of, "if you had read."

I was listing many of the questions you would have to answer when you decided to shoot instead of "meet the force." Obviously you have it in your mind that defense defaults to gun if somebody threatens you. If you want to do that, fine. Just realize the possible problems you are starting for yourself.

For me, I chose to stay in shape, train, and provide myself with options. For me a gun is the last option and not the first. I've had people threaten to do all kinds of things. More often than not they never followed through. A few tried and found out it was a waste of time. More often than not I just found a way to avoid things.

I learned a long time back that most guys making threats are covering up for their own fear. They are like tea cup pups. They bark real loud hoping you'll back down so they can feel big.

If you have too, grab your kid, get behind the wheel, and go. When you get a safe distance pull over, call the cops, and when they arrive explain everything while filing a report.

Quote:
Regarding your 5th question- I am not obligated to detain someone who is attacking me, regardless of my physical conditioning. That is absurd.
You are not obligated to do anything at all. However, a good old fashion chicken wing untill the cops get there is an option. I did it to a guy that was beating on my cousin. He threatened to kill her and her son. Instead of shooting him dead I wrapped him up and subdued him untill the cops arrived. He didn't have a weapon and there was not a big disparity of force. So, I took a less than lethal approach.

You can also detain with your weapon. It is actually allowed under law in many states. How long and why varies from state to state. If you pull and tell them to stop and they do, it has become a detainment situation unless they run. If they run you should do the same. Get to a safe distance (or place) and call it in.

Again, defense does not default to gun. Threatening language does not always mean the person has the ability to complete the threat. If a 60 year old 5'4" 100lb lady screams, "I'll kill you" and starts smacking you empty handed are you going to shoot her?

I know that is an extreme example, but we must realize that not every threatening person has the ability to follow through or can stop you from escaping.

Oh, and yeah I have had to use a gun for defense three times. I never shot, but each time I was justified and never charged. I've lived through real life experiences. I'm not just discussing hypotheticals. I've been there and been told that what I did was proper. I also work for a police department and get to pick the brains of guys that investigate these things.

I offer advice based on real life. I don't consider myself an expert. I consider myself a guy with enough experience and knowledge that people might want to listen and consider what I say. Otherwise I would lurk and leave these threads alone.
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Last edited by MikeNice81; July 30, 2011 at 12:52 AM.
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