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Old July 26, 2011, 09:42 AM   #76
youngunz4life
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I disagree gilligan

if the OP was being witnessed in a vulgar, shouting match on his part after losing his temper, than they were both at fault. If that's the case, there is no evidence that the BG was doing anything different than the OP.

Please note I am not saying this is what happened, but I am not undertsanding why the BUG was a problem here? Were these two individuals face to face yelling at each other? I really can't see any other reason why the BUG was a problem, and the OP did state that his daughter was in tears which holds weight that this encounter did escalate in some form or another. I do know some people carry(or I should say usually just own a gun) without perfect knowledge on a weapon...this is a stretch with reference to the OP because he probably was very efficient. Some people do feel much more comfortable with specific weapons though and sometimes carry(or usually just own) unreliable weapons due to little knowledge or lack of cleaning. Most don't, I don't, but some do. I can't remember the thread but one example was the man that 'saved' the woman from the attack of three dogs. Unfortunately his small auto had a tendency of jamming after one shot. Well, she was seriously injured, but the one shot did kill one dog but there was two left!

I have two kids, and they can help(not going there - that's another blog), but that doesn't in any shape or form change the circumstances for the OP drawing on the BG unless his daughter or him were in danger in the original post. I don't get the feeling that the BG was trying to get hold of the daughter, his aggression was focused on the OP. I mean, the door incident which started the whole encounter ended in zero injury even though it was upsetting.

I also am stating to the OP that I am sorry for making 'guesses' at what happened during this incident. I am not doubting you; I just don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

all the best
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Old July 26, 2011, 12:28 PM   #77
sirgilligan
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Here is another true story for you.

My Dad and his second cousin have been close friends their entire life. Both have dairy farms about 3 miles apart. My mom and the cousin's wife have been friends since their late teenage years as well. I will call them John and Mary for the sake of this story.

They decide to go out for dinner one evening. The wives go into town early to do some shopping, the men finish the milking, feeding, etc. and come later. Mary drives their new car. My Dad and John come in one of the farm trucks.

After eating they leave the way they came. My Mom and Mary leave in Mary's new car. The restaurant is in the country on a state two lane high way. They pull onto the road and a truck pulling a boat is coming up fast. Well, the driver of the truck, lets call him Jack (short for Jack A$$) is frustrated he had to slow down on this two lane road. He tail gates them. My mom suggests to pull over and let him pass. They find a pull-out and stop. Guess what Jack does, he pulls in and stops too. He gets out and starts cussing them and shouting and acting up. Jack didn't notice the truck behind him which had pulled in. My Dad and John pull in. John gets out, walks up to the guy and says something like, "Don't speak to her that way." Jack, being as brilliant as he is, made some comment other than "Sorry." John hit him so hard in the mouth that he was down on the ground. Jack had a friend in the truck. He started to get out. My Dad looks at him and just waves his finger, "NO". He stays put. I don't recall but I think Jack tried to get up and try his luck again. Same results. A witness drove by and seen all of this and stops at the restaurant and calls the police. The sheriff shows up. Jack shows his busted mouth and complains he has been assaulted. My Dad and John talk to the sheriff, which they have known since child hood and guess what, Jack gets to go to jail now. The sheriff doesn't even entertain the possibility of Jack filing a complaint and was told not to come back into this county again.

The OP was alone with a 3 year old. If he had been with someone like John or my Dad he could have busted the SOB's mouth and told him to learn some manners. If the mouth busting embarrassed this butt-hole too bad. Some bullies need the crap knocked out of them. I have never seen a bully escalate it further because somehow they seem to know they asked for it. Others experiences may be different. But in Kentucky, you are going to get your mouth busted if you are in our area.
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Old July 26, 2011, 01:10 PM   #78
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Wow. Too much conjecture! The OP was only asking about better alternatives to an ankle holster and not to have every detailed of his encounter analyzed forward, backward, & sideways.

Heck of a welcome to member posting for the first time.
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Old July 26, 2011, 02:15 PM   #79
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Quote:
Anyone else ever use an ankle holster for their BUG? I would like to hear your thoughts.
I have an ankle holster. Carried an airweight S&W j-frame in it a few times. But after practice at drawing the revolver out of the blasted thing, I gave up on it.

I pocket carry exclusively now. Works a whole lot better.
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Old July 26, 2011, 02:29 PM   #80
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Quote:
Here is another true story for you....

... in Kentucky, you are going to get your mouth busted if you are in our area.
Different culture, for sure...in Pennsylvania usually both will be charged with assault (mutual fighting). They'll let the courts sort it out.
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Old July 26, 2011, 03:31 PM   #81
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Quote:
They pull onto the road and a truck pulling a boat is coming up fast. Well, the driver of the truck, lets call him Jack (short for Jack A$$) is frustrated he had to slow down on this two lane road.
Lesson: Don't pull out in front of traffic on a state highway. Wait for traffic to pass, problem avoided.

I'd be "frustrated" too, if somebody nearly caused me to roll my boat because they pulled out in front of me on the highway at 5mph.
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Old July 26, 2011, 03:47 PM   #82
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Quote:
The OP was alone with a 3 year old. If he had been with someone like John or my Dad he could have busted the SOB's mouth and told him to learn some manners. If the mouth busting embarrassed this butt-hole too bad. Some bullies need the crap knocked out of them. I have never seen a bully escalate it further because somehow they seem to know they asked for it. Others experiences may be different. But in Kentucky, you are going to get your mouth busted if you are in our area.
Interestingly, would Jack__ be in fear of his life and then be able to blow them away?
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Old July 26, 2011, 04:24 PM   #83
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Quote:
I'd be "frustrated" too, if somebody nearly caused me to roll my boat because they pulled out in front of me on the highway at 5mph.
Would you have been frustrated enough to get your mouth busted too? Would you cuss out two women when they have pulled over to let you pass?
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Old July 26, 2011, 04:28 PM   #84
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Interestingly, would Jack__ be in fear of his life and then be able to blow them away?
He didn't. And John didn't shoot him for attacking his wife either. No gun needed.

I remember the day at high school when you would see a rifle in the truck window rack. Nobody thought twice and no one was going to get it out and shoot someone when they got in a fight either.
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Old July 26, 2011, 04:41 PM   #85
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Would you have been frustrated enough to get your mouth busted too? Would you cuss out two women when they have pulled over to let you pass?


Please refer to rule #3
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Old July 26, 2011, 04:48 PM   #86
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would Jack__ be in fear of his life and then be able to blow them away
I'm sure it's happened. Somebody gets in another's face, the one being accosted decides to throw the first punch and knocks the other down. The aggressor is now the victim, pulls a pistol and ends it, quickly.

There's always at least two sides to every story, especially one where a fight is described. While the guy may have been yelling, using nasty words, and maybe even pointing his index finger... none of those things would make a reasonable person fear for their life. Once that punch is thrown, the would-be victim has become the antagonist, opened himself up to physical retaliation and hurt if not destroyed any legal argument about self defense that he may have.

Maybe that's how they do it down in Kentucky. Good thing that boater didn't have a gun, a knife, or a better chin.

Last edited by booker_t; July 26, 2011 at 04:54 PM.
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Old July 26, 2011, 05:00 PM   #87
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or a better chin
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Old July 26, 2011, 07:24 PM   #88
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BOATMAN98:
Lesson #1 here, if you carry, never leave your "main carry" at home! Unless you're going to be going through a metal detector/body search area, you should never be unarmed. Never.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, a similar incident happened to me on the street in front of the post office. My guns were in the vehicle with my disabled daughter. I was outside the vehicle. I simply locked the door with my car remote, and was greeted by a loud, rude, profanity from a man who said, (in words I cannot repeat here) I was not gonna steal your (explecative). He left, and I warned the postmaster that he should have a security guard in the parking lot, or there was liable to be an incidence of violence in the parking lot. He quickly lanced at me, I guess to see if I was armed, (and I was not) because I am a law abiding citisen. Now I go only early in the morning. I always have two guns with me but take the time to move them to my car console or car pouch before I drive to the post office parking lot. When I thought about the incident later, it came to my mind that the guy could have actually planned to carjack my vehicle, but got mad when I set the alarm. I follow the rule of always being armed with at least one gun, usually my CA 44 Bulldog, in a paddle holster, and a S&W 38 Spl in my cargo shorts pocket, (CA makes good pocket holsters), but I do not carry at the post office, nor on VA property. I do intend to carry everywhere I can legally carry, and will not go anywhere that is legal to carry without my cell phone and my guns, because if I can help it I do not intend to be a victim. At this same Post Office I quite
often see police from a nearby town enter the post office and they are armed
but I suppose that it is acceptable for them to be. I don't think they are on
official business, when I have seen them enter it armed. Also there is no
"no gun" sign at the post office. Small rural town.

Last edited by TexasJustice7; July 26, 2011 at 07:30 PM.
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Old July 26, 2011, 08:02 PM   #89
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Thanks to everyone who has offered advice. I purchased a LC9 yesterday(I have been looking for an excuse to get one). I am currently looking at pocket holsters. It does feel nice in my pocket. Now I need to go shoot it.

@ younggunz4life
I was caught off guard. I was put into a uncomfortable situation by my own complacency. I have practiced drawing my BUG from the ankle and never thought it would be a problem until I had a man standing 10 feet from me telling me he was going to kill me. Those words changed the whole situation for me. I realized that getting that gun out if he made good on his threat was problematic at best. 10 feet can be covered by an average man in about 1/2 of a second. It would take me at best 2 seconds to get my gun out. I don't know if he had a weapon. I didn't want to find out. haha I don't want it to happen again. So no more ankle holster for me.

JUMP
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Old July 26, 2011, 08:07 PM   #90
booker_t
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JUMP, I highly recommend the High Noon Pocket Grabber.

http://highnoonholsters.com/Product_...t_grabber.html

Also my advice is that when re-holstering, always take the holster out of your pocket, holster the gun, then insert the whole thing back into your pocket. Never try to re-holster directly in the pocket.

For a lighter option, the Blackhawk is nice as well.
http://shopruger.com/BLACKHAWK-LC9-P...uctinfo/50176/
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Old July 26, 2011, 08:24 PM   #91
youngunz4life
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gilligan, thanx for the story and jump, thanx for the further explanation. I pocket carry myself, and it works very well for me.
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Old July 26, 2011, 09:09 PM   #92
JUMP
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That Highnoon is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks booker_t
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Old July 26, 2011, 10:37 PM   #93
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So no more ankle holster for me.

Good call!
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Old July 27, 2011, 06:32 AM   #94
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Thanks to everyone who has offered advice. I purchased a LC9 yesterday(I have been looking for an excuse to get one). I am currently looking at pocket holsters. It does feel nice in my pocket. Now I need to go shoot it.

@ younggunz4life
I was caught off guard. I was put into a uncomfortable situation by my own complacency. I have practiced drawing my BUG from the ankle and never thought it would be a problem until I had a man standing 10 feet from me telling me he was going to kill me. Those words changed the whole situation for me. I realized that getting that gun out if he made good on his threat was problematic at best. 10 feet can be covered by an average man in about 1/2 of a second. It would take me at best 2 seconds to get my gun out. I don't know if he had a weapon. I didn't want to find out. haha I don't want it to happen again. So no more ankle holster for me.

JUMP
Good points. I have heard good things about the LC9, and this at least gives you the opportunity to have a better carry position for you. I hope you bought that munchkin some serious ice cream!
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Old July 27, 2011, 06:54 AM   #95
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Have 2yo and 12yo girls myself. The 12yo is quite a shooter...

Anyways, I know where you are coming from and agree. I would have probably reacted differently to insure he didn't carry out his threats, and wanted to point out the following.


There is a 3yo little girl being threatened here as well. If you go down (even just knocked out)...what happens to her...no one is left to stop the BG.


I am glad that things ended the way they did, but honestly once he began to advance on me issuing threats, with my 2yo daughter present i would have stopped the threat.

I believe you can use deadly force to stop the threat if you reasonably believe death or serious bodily harm is going to come to you or OTHERS. My daughter does not have a chance if I get removed from action.


The threats that were made toward YOU, in my opinion were made to you and YOUR 3YO daughter as you had to put her behind you to defend her.

That's the part that really upsets me...just something to think about.

Good job and glad everyone came out of it safely...so your actions proved successful (ignore all of us armchair quarterbacks)....just providing something to think about for others should they have the same happen.
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Old July 27, 2011, 08:13 AM   #96
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Jump, not for nothing, but your story has changed somewhat.

In your OP you said this:

Quote:
He was being very threatening verbally and was advancing towards us.
That has now become:

Quote:
I had a man standing 10 feet from me telling me he was going to kill me.
I think that information from the beginning would have yielded some different answers. Being verbally threatening, as in "I'll kick your ***" or "I'll mess you up" is quite different from someone actually saying they will kill you as they advance. If someone literally says that, the fear of that happening is more specific and self-defense use of force becomes less of a question.
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Old July 27, 2011, 08:27 AM   #97
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Booker t

Thanks for the link. Just what I was looking for.
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Old July 27, 2011, 08:33 AM   #98
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ZincWarrior:

I'm sure the law varies from state to state, but in New York state I know that if someone who is armed provokes someone into assaulting him like the loud mouth did, he is guilty of assault with a deadly weapon and would not be justified in shooting the one who threw the punch.
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Old July 27, 2011, 08:40 AM   #99
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Ok in that scenario, how would he be guilty of assault? Note this is completely OT from the thread and might be its own thread.

*Player A gets his panties in a wad and shouts at Player B because Player A is a jerk.
*Player B punches him in the face.
*Player A caps him, alleging imminent fear of his life.

How has Player A assaulted anyone? Verbally abusive yes, but "assaultive?" (as in some sort of criminal assault). No way.
This is why it pays to be speak softly and not act rashly if one is legally carrying (or generally in life).
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Old July 27, 2011, 09:08 AM   #100
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Not to hijack/redirect the thread.. but some good points were brought up.

There's a difference between putting yourself between your daughter and somebody yelling at you to shield her, or as a precautionary measure... and standing in front of your daughter to protect her from an imminent attack.

Yelling, screaming, pointing, fist shaking, even threats of harm are not always enough to make a "reasonable person" feel as though their life (or their daughter's) is seriously threatened.

Those who say they would "stop the threat" when he was yelling at them and their daughter need to re-look at their state laws and perhaps take a local CCW course, or they might wind up putting themselves in prison and their daughter without a father anyway. It is vital to know the conditions that must be met for when presenting a firearm, let alone discharging one, is legally justified.

And yes, verbal attacks can be a form of assault. Provokation can also be considered assault. Check your state's criminal statutes.
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