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Old July 25, 2011, 11:02 AM   #51
SRH78
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Quote:
I agree with you, Riverwalker, that an initial response of, draw the gun, when someone gets upset is not good. But, I can definitely see how as soon as a potential confrontation looms ahead, it's very sensible to start thinking out the moves in advance. This situation should cause one who carries to consider his options if things go south. But I don't think that's what's here.
Well said


Zincwarrior-
I don't think the OP is beating himself up over retreating, which was the right way to handle the situation, but rather he is simply pointing out that leaving his EDC at home could have been a costly mistake had things gone differently.
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:12 AM   #52
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OP-
All is well that ends well. Maintaining distance and de-escalating the situation is the ideal solution when possible, especially since your daughter was there. As it turned out, this was a free reminder on how easily things can happen.
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:26 AM   #53
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Zincwarrior-
I don't think the OP is beating himself up over retreating, which was the right way to handle the situation, but rather he is simply pointing out that leaving his EDC at home could have been a costly mistake had things gone differently.
Gotcha. Although I think the holster location might have been an issue for this compatriot, and he can now revise, I'd proffer worrying about only having the BUG gun is misplaced. If one has a BUG gun, one should be able to rely on it.

Ankle holsters are like other holsters, outfit and operator preference decide whats best for them. As I live in "sinners go to Hell, REAL sinners go to Texas" Texas, shorts are standard issue uniform half the year and an ankle holster looks a little out of place...
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:29 AM   #54
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Lots of posts have said some version of "The OP's first thought was to pull a gun." I don't read that. His first thought was to protect his daughter, and he thought of his gun as one of his available tools to do that. Isn't that why we buy and carry guns? He realized quickly that the only gun at his disposal was in an ankle holster, and that came into his decision making, but he used his wits to get out of a dangerous situation without drawing or firing. Who is to say that he would not have had the same result if he had a pistol IWB instead of on his ankle? He posted because he was shaken and wanted to remind those of us who read such things that we should never consider ourselves to safe too carry our sidearms. Completely valid point to make, and an excellent illustration.

OP, you did fine. You protected that which is most precious to you and you got home safe without needing a lawyer. There are people who go around looking for things to be insulted about; who has not had someone give you a dirty look or a hard word instead of thanks when you held a door open for them. The worst of them can be dangerous. You survived an encounter with one of those with no ill effects. Nice job.
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Old July 25, 2011, 03:32 PM   #55
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I wrote:
Quote:
Riverwalker- are you willing to take punches from an "unarmed" aggressor before considering yourself to be in danger of great bodily harm?

If the nutjob advances quickly and strikes the right way, all it takes is one hit and it's all over.
Zincwarrior wrote:
Quote:
Laws of different states vary. Many states require the standard of fear of death of severe injury. Defending yourself in a courtroom is going to be an incredibly expense process, one not to be taken likely, and the burden will be upon you to prove that was the situation. Depending on the situation, and jurisdiction, that may be extremely difficult.
Are these not the same thing? I would be in fear of great bodily harm, or severe injury, if someone is advancing angrily toward me with raised fists. I'm not going to wait to be pummeled before trying to defend myself.
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Old July 25, 2011, 03:40 PM   #56
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In this case,,,

Quote:
if someone is advancing angrily toward me with raised fists. I'm not going to wait to be pummeled before trying to defend myself.
I believe the presence of the 3-year old daughter would have a lot of weight,,,
It's not the OP that was in potential danger but the child as well.

But again, arm chair quarterbacking is futile.

Personally I believe the OP did the right thing,,,
If I and my young daughter were in the same position,,,
I would probably have pulled a handgun and let the jury decide.

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Old July 25, 2011, 04:10 PM   #57
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I am now looking at pocket holsters for the LC9 I am going to buy Monday.

Anyone else ever use an ankle holster for their BUG? I would like to hear your thoughts.
If the only gun you have is the one on your ankle, it is not a "back up" gun. If you can't access it fairly quickly and smoothly, it isn't especially useful (as you found out).
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Old July 25, 2011, 05:45 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH.74
If the nutjob advances quickly and strikes the right way, all it takes is one hit and it's all over.
That is very, VERY unlikey, and not worth pulling a weapon over. It's also why I suggested hand to hand training, and also why relying on a gun as a "defensive tool" is ridiculous. You can only attack, not block, with a gun. Rifles aside.
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Old July 25, 2011, 06:39 PM   #59
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My most used defensive tool is my brain. I am one of those fortunate enough to be able to maintain a cool demenor in hot situations. I will talk my way out if I can. I am in my mid 30's in decent shape, strong, and fairly well trained in hand to hand defense. If a big thug is moving agressively at me after yelling threats you better belive my hand will be on the grip of whichever gun I am carrying. I will give a STOP, STOP NOW, STOP OR I WILL SHOOT YOU. (I have been mistaken for a police officer for the way I yell). If they attack I am going to shoot them till they stop.

Now as far as a pocket holster is concearned they make several that will work. Depends on how big your pockets are. I carry a P64 in my pocket even if my primary carry is at home or in the truck. I live in the land of heat indexes over 110. (Happens to be what it feels like outside as I type this.)
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Old July 25, 2011, 06:55 PM   #60
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That is very, VERY unlikey, and not worth pulling a weapon over.
It is not the likelyhood of an attack that causes me to Carry, but the stakes involved: all you have and ever will be. Dead is Forever.

If you don't think your life is worth pulling a gun over, fine: it's yours to value, or not, as you see fit.

Not only can one punch be fatal, what, exactly, other than his "good character" would stop someone that would punch you for appearing worried he might hit your door from stopping after one punch? Why nothing at all: he could just as easily beat you down and curb stomp you.

Trust Goblins to exhibit reasonable behavior at your peril, Sir.
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Old July 25, 2011, 07:20 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverwalker76
From a legal stand point, at what point does a CCW Permit holder make the decision to pull a loaded firearm on an unarmed aggressor?

Maybe I'm thinking a little differently than some as I do not live in a high crime area, and am not faced with the daily threat of possible loss of life or property. However, regardless of the location, at what point does the CCW turn into a criminal?
Try walking by yourself (or with your child) at night in a dark alley in some bad neighborhood, maybe in the Bronx, Atlanta, or Miami. You will instantly know what a threat means even if they are not showing any weapons.
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Old July 25, 2011, 07:30 PM   #62
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While I'm sure the driver of the other vehicle was a chucklehead, and not to disparage the OP, but I wonder if there isn't just a little more to this story. Actually I don't wonder, there are always at least two sides to every story.

Regardless,

Quote:
I slowly walked away from him without breaking eye contact.
The eyes don't pull a gun or knife, the hands and his buddies do. A strong front is good, but be sure to scan the area.

Glad you were able to deal with the situation without physical confrontation. Unfortunate that today we can't even go for a nice evening for ice cream with our family without the potential threat of confrontation. Did you talk with your daughter about it afterwards, does she understand what happened?

There is an element of our citizenry, like this aggressive individual, that just doesn't understand being part of something bigger than themselves or their crew, how to befriend strangers as one nation, one human society.
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Old July 25, 2011, 09:00 PM   #63
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I hope the lesson you learned is this:

A BUG is a BUG. A BUG is for when your main carry gun fails or runs dry.

An LCP on the ankle does not allow you to leave your main carry gun at home.

If you are going to leave something home, leave the BUG.
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Old July 25, 2011, 10:42 PM   #64
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Not only can one punch be fatal,
It can there is no doubt. One punch can knock you out. One punch can feel like a fly bite. You never know unless it happens. However, in most states responding to threats or simple assault with a gun will get you locked up.

In NC try shooting someone because they busted your nose. They will lock you under the jail.
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:30 PM   #65
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That is very, VERY unlikey, and not worth pulling a weapon over. It's also why I suggested hand to hand training, and also why relying on a gun as a "defensive tool" is ridiculous. You can only attack, not block, with a gun. Rifles aside.
In my younger days, I have witnessed more than a few barfights that ended with one punch - enough to convince me that I have no intention of testing the odds. As a senior citizen, hand-to-hand combat is not one of my better options. If someone has chosen his fists as his primary weapon with which to attack me, I will assume that he is very proficient and respond with the weapon with which I consider myself to be proficient - especially when the welfare of any member of my family is also involved.
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Old July 26, 2011, 12:52 AM   #66
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What's wrong with kneeling down, facing the threat with your hand near your BUG? In this position you can still hold your ground and keep your child close. I doubt the aggressor would think you were preparing yourself to draw your weapon. Your weapon stays concealed and you have the advantage.

Remember there are no rules to protecting your life and the life of your child. You don't have to stay standing the entire time. Crouch as if tying your shoe, force your child behind you and hold her with your left hand while your right hand dangles near your rig. Or something to this effect that will give you the advantage in the situation at hand.

There are times I leave my house with my g27 on my ankle and nothing on my hip. When I do its because I have athletic gear on. (Sweats, wind breakers, softball pants (of course my gun goes in my ball bag/truck while playing)) I feel very comfortable having my gun on my ankle. If a situation like this rises everyday then I would keep my gun more available but these things happen very rarely and mostly end without problem. When the problem does arise I will likely do as I stated earlier.

This is my opinion and I hope it helps.
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Old July 26, 2011, 01:30 AM   #67
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I only read the OP's post... other than the (rules of a gun fight picture, lol, That is just perfect. Fighting is no good... but if it comes down to it. You might as well be prepared.)

I just had to say this. Pocket carry and all the different belt carries are the only ways I would ever consider carrying a gun.... unless I had 3 handguns! Then I might put one on my ankle. In my mind, the ankle is pretty much the furthest thing on my body from my hand, so there is no reason for me to keep a gun, or even a backup gun there. I'd think that a shoulder holster or belt holster or pocket holster would be the way to go... you could have 3 guns in all those different areas if you wanted. But I've never been a advocate of the ankle holster..... just because it's so far away.
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Old July 26, 2011, 08:20 AM   #68
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It can there is no doubt. One punch can knock you out. One punch can feel like a fly bite. You never know unless it happens. However, in most states responding to threats or simple assault with a gun will get you locked up.

In NC try shooting someone because they busted your nose. They will lock you under the jail.
Let's try keeping this discussion realistic and intelligent. That statement is neither.

So in NC I have to actually have someone cause me great bodily harm before defense is justified? What's to say someone will stop at a "busted nose?" A "busted nose" done in certain ways can be very bad or even fatal. It can mean a lifetime of disfigurement. Many operations. That's known as great bodily harm.

My understanding is "fear of great bodily harm or death." At least that's the way it works in my state.
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Old July 26, 2011, 08:54 AM   #69
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I mean no disrespect of course, and I understand that age may affect your ability to physically defend yourself, and so may many other things.

But again, can your threat be taken down before he gets to you?

Can you get yourself or your loved ones out of the way while shooting/reloading/moving?

Do you practice enough with a gun that you can do this under pressure? Age affects more than just hand to hand skills.

This problem was solved without violence, which is always the best way, but no one expects a man to react that way, who are we to expect that he won't charge a man holding a gun?
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Old July 26, 2011, 09:06 AM   #70
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Quote:
Quote:
It can there is no doubt. One punch can knock you out. One punch can feel like a fly bite. You never know unless it happens. However, in most states responding to threats or simple assault with a gun will get you locked up.

In NC try shooting someone because they busted your nose. They will lock you under the jail.

Let's try keeping this discussion realistic and intelligent. That statement is neither.

So in NC I have to actually have someone cause me great bodily harm before defense is justified? What's to say someone will stop at a "busted nose?" A "busted nose" done in certain ways can be very bad or even fatal. It can mean a lifetime of disfigurement. Many operations. That's known as great bodily harm.

My understanding is "fear of great bodily harm or death." At least that's the way it works in my state.
It should be remembered though that the difficulty here is that you're going to affirmatively defend the argument that you had a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death. When you draw/use you've committed a crime and now have to affirmatively prove you had a valid defense to that crime.

Assuming the jury is going to find you had a reasonable fear in light of circumstances can be difficult. Its a fact case with a high standard. Someone shouting at you, in light of a courtroom and not the actual scene of the event can be similar to the second guessing often seen by police officers.

Does a jury see it as: Grandpa drawing after giving warnings because BG was advancing in crazy fashion, and this is verified by bystanders who can attest that the BG looked like he was: 1) about to kill the grandpa; and 2) appeared that he actually had the ability to do so.

Or does a jury see it as: Joe Blow pullls a gun and starts waiving it about because John Smith gave him the finger and shouted at him?

I am not saying drawing is right or drawing is wrong. I'm saying drawing is a potentially life changing event for everyone involved and needs to be treated as such.
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Old July 26, 2011, 09:11 AM   #71
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I know of multiple incidents where a punch lead to a murder conviction. The upset hockey dad comes to mind...

Quote:
....but he used his wits to get out of a dangerous situation without drawing or firing.
I feel this was a potentially dangerous situation only, But I agree w/your post. I usually plus probably would'nt pull my weapon during a verbal argument and/or confrontation, but situations such as these can have a tendency to escalate so one must be ready. Situations such as these can also differ dramatically from 'bad idea to use a weapon here' and 'my weapon is definately needed even though this person isn't armed'. I have no problem with someone pulling a weapon when they fear serious harm. That being said only the OP truely knows if it would've been a bad idea to pull a gun during this encounter. Baiscally, both sides of the "draw" or "no draw" can be right depending on the situation. I personally am not going to go fist a cuffs w/some loopy to protect my honor and/or engage his fantasy or rage. My weapon would be drawn if someone makes up his mind that my face is about to be bashed in by his bare hands, boots, whatever.

My worthless theory is this: if the OP had to, the BUG would've been justified and would've gotten the job done...thankfully it never went that far where it was needed so unless I have more info, ther BUG's use wasn't justified and/or called for in this instance.
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Old July 26, 2011, 09:14 AM   #72
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When you draw/use you've committed a crime and now have to affirmatively prove you had a valid defense to that crime.
Do you really see it that way? That's an assumed fact?
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Old July 26, 2011, 09:27 AM   #73
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Lot's of replies and I have skimmed them quickly so forgive any repeat information.

The man had his 3 year old with him. That is the key, the crux to the entire situation.
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Old July 26, 2011, 09:29 AM   #74
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Now there may be juridictions where that is not the case, but in most some form of that is the law.

Some jurisdictions may have specific "brandishing" statues specifically for CHl's, otherwise you're "under the gun" for the generic criminal charges your average road rage guy might have (assuming we're just talking drawing here).

Regardless you're generally having to prove some affirmative form of self defense. Basically you're admitting you did it, and now have to prove what you did meets the local criteria for a valid defense.
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Old July 26, 2011, 09:33 AM   #75
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Lot's of replies and I have skimmed them quickly so forgive any repeat information.

The man had his 3 year old with him. That is the key, the crux to the entire situation.
Indeed in many ways. Stepping back from the holster/BUG issue et al, absent other facts not being discussed what kind of guy goes off on another guy walking a 3 year old. In addition to helping any claim of lawful drawing (along the lines of "he did what? The other guy had a 3 year old? Yea he deserves what he got") its just offensive to me.
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