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Old July 24, 2011, 05:20 PM   #26
Dwight55
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I was in a very bad situation, if he made real on his threats.
1. There is a 3 year old daughter to protect (did the other guy have his eye on the 3 year old?????)

2. From the description of the incident, . . . accepting as true, . . . there was no sane reason for the altercation in the first place.

3. From the above quote, . . . I would have taken the man to be a man of his word, . . . accepted that he planned on making real on his threats, . . . and I would have unholstered, . . . pointing the weapon at the ground.

I don't fool around with drunks, druggies, or loudmouth illegitimate birthed idiots who may let their battleship mouths get their rowboat rear ends in trouble.

Once the threats were uttered, . . . it is time for this 66 year old to de-escalate the whole thing the best way possible, . . . and once he had closed to inside of 20 feet, . . . it's time to get the hardware out. Anything closer will be too late, . . . and it may already be, . . . but it is time to act, . . . and then call 911 and let the lawyers and cops sort it out while the 3 year old and I are safe from harm.

But to the OP, . . . you did good, . . . you are undoubtedly younger and in better shape, . . . and you got home safe. Score one for your side.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old July 24, 2011, 05:34 PM   #27
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De-escalation was the best tool in this situation. The child being there posed a good and bad addition. You would instinctively want to protect the child in the fastest and most effective way. Kneeling down to "help her" may have given you the chance to draw, and maybe put the gun elsewhere. Even better, with something between you and the aggressor. However, as was said, drawing the gun with only a verbal confrontation is never a good idea.

The question is opinions on ankle carry, my opinion is not to do it. Too many things in your way, too much time. As far as I see it, a back up gun should be brought out faster than a primary gun. I also believe that if a gun is your first physical defense, you may want to consider more hand to hand training. Drawing anything while under physical attacks isn't easy, especially from your ankle.
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Old July 24, 2011, 05:48 PM   #28
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Again, I agree that the OP did a good job at defusing the situation.

However, his first thought was to reach for his gun! You can see how this could be troubling to some who don't know the OP.

Blackfeather hit the nail on the head! If you are only confident when carrying a concealed weapon then you might want to get some basic hand to hand defense skills under your belt.

I know that's easier said than done in today's real world of 'not enough time in the day', but it's something you might want to consider.

After all, the best confrontation is one you can verbally talk your way out of. Never draw unless physically threatened, and you feel you cannot protect yourself otherwise. Fleeing the situation, especially with children present, is not always the cowardly thing to do. It might not fit into your list of 'manly' things to do, but it is a possibility.
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Old July 24, 2011, 05:59 PM   #29
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Riverwalker76,

I never said that I would have drawn on the BG. I was only trying to make the point that I learned my lesson about working in the garage and taking my gun off to be more comfortable. Then leaving the house without it was not a good move.

The only way I will ever pull out my weapon is if I am threatened beyond means of escape. I will try to defuse any situation verbally before resorting to my weapons(I was carrying my revolver on my ankle after all). I was able to move and protect my daughter that is all that I want to do and the entire reason that I carry in the first place is to defend my family and myself.

I have been carrying for close to 12 years off/on. I have never been as threatened as I was last night.

Very good food for thought though and thanks for the advice to everyone.
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Old July 24, 2011, 06:23 PM   #30
robmkivseries70
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Hi Jump,
I thought you did fine, The other guy probably thought his driving was insulted. LOL. Tying one's shoe is a good pre-draw exercise. In a serious confrontation you are a smaller target at ground level with a knee in front of your chest. Having a BUG in the child's car carrier might be an alternative strategy.
Best,
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Old July 24, 2011, 06:27 PM   #31
JerryM
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Defusing is the best option when possible.
It always has seemed to me that ankle carry is so clumsy and slow as to be useless if you need a gun relatively fast.

I sometimes carry my P3AT in a pocket holster. It is better in 20/20 hindsight that there was not gun shown, but you can never guess what will happen next.
Glad you and your daughter came through OK.

Regards,
Jerry
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Old July 24, 2011, 06:33 PM   #32
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Bug's are back up guns and shouldn't be carried without main, same for main no carry without back up.
I seriously doubt a BUG is actually necessary for 99.9% of all people who choose to CC. I carry a Colt Detective. Six shots of 38SPL. Is that a BUG? Am I living dangerously by not carrying something bigger with more capacity? I think not.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old July 24, 2011, 06:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
However, his first thought was to reach for his gun! You can see how this could be troubling to some who don't know the OP.
I agree with you, Riverwalker, that an initial response of, draw the gun, when someone gets upset is not good. But, I can definitely see how as soon as a potential confrontation looms ahead, it's very sensible to start thinking out the moves in advance. This situation should cause one who carries to consider his options if things go south. But I don't think that's what's here. OP said:

Quote:
He was being very threatening verbally and was advancing towards us. Here is my problem. I left my main carry gun at home. I only had my BUG on my ankle. I was in a very bad situation, if he made real on his threats.
Looks like he was just suddenly concerned that if the BG carried out his threats, his options were limited because he wasn't toting Roscoe #1. I think this is a perfectly reasonable thought process.
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Old July 24, 2011, 07:18 PM   #34
Glenn Dee
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Just curious...

Was the O/P's first thought to draw the gun?... or how could he if he had to?
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Old July 24, 2011, 07:18 PM   #35
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I would have to say we are all basing our responses off our locale. In AZ, when threatened with physical violence, it is legal under Defensive Display to show a firearm, in an attempt to defuse the situation, as described in Prof. Klecks research as occuring a million times or more a year. I also would agree that I, myself, would not use an ankle holster, but many do, and are happy with it. I would prefer a pocket rig, so as to have the unobtrusive hand on the gun for insta-draw if needed, especially in this case.
We can Monday Morning Quarterback this one to death, but what the OP did worked, with no violence neccesary.
I use BUGs on occaision, and feel it is a viable option.
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Old July 24, 2011, 08:27 PM   #36
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oops

Hi Jump,
Since I live in stone-age Illinois, my carry piece is a 2" swiss army pocket knife complete with tweezers and a toothpick. My home piece is a S&W Bodyguard .380. If ccw ever comes to my state I will carry the little gun IWB. It will be my main and bug. Short range self-defence is all I would carry for. Ankle holster for me is too much of a telegraph of the fact I am drawing. IWB is quick to grab, and with a small piece, totally non-printing.

Glad you extricated without having to draw.

JA
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Old July 24, 2011, 08:35 PM   #37
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I ankle carried a J frame for a while years ago when I first started carrying because it worked well when I was driving. I would switch it to IWB when I got out of the car.

The problem was that I found myself sometimes forgetting to make the switch. There were also times when I found myself getting lax, telling myself not to worry about making the switch just this once to save a bit of time.

Then I had a situation where I might have needed the gun and I felt completely stupid for leaving it in my ankle holster. No way would an assailant give you the time to pull up your pants leg and draw from an ankle holster. Luckily I didn't have to, but that was all it took for me to never rely on ankle carry for a main gun. It might be ok for a backup gun or a third gun but definitely not for a main carry gun.

Now I know that pocket carry works best for my J frame.

It's good that things worked out for you and you learned just like I did. Spread the word and hopefully help another citizen gun owner.
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Old July 24, 2011, 08:54 PM   #38
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I think the OP did well, but I do not like ankle carry.

I carry OWB at 4:00. At 8:00 on the other side is a small can of pepper spray that I can hold in my hand without it being seen.
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Old July 24, 2011, 10:04 PM   #39
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I don't understand the lack of confidence in a BUG. If you don't feel confident in it practice more or carry something you trust.
OP did good, nobody important got hurt except for the BG. He got his feelings hurt. If you got his address I'll send him a sympathy card.
Bottom line, if you can de-escalate the situation and go home that's always going to be Plan A. Plan B sucks.
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Old July 24, 2011, 10:41 PM   #40
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Jump,

You done good by de-escalating the situation. I'm glad things worked out for you. You kind of demonstrated the "better to have a .22 in your pocket than a .45 on the nightstand (or in your ankle holster)" saying.

I used to use an ankle holster a long time ago and learned that they are not good for almost all situations. The only situation I can think of where an ankle holster would be beneficial is in a car and being able to reach for it while sitting down.

Pocket holster for a PF9 is very doable in the back pocket of a pair of jeans. Depending on the person, a loaded PF9 could be a bit heavy/large for the front pants pocket. IWB is also good, but requires pants 1" or so looser around the waist.
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Old July 24, 2011, 11:03 PM   #41
Hiker 1
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Lose the ankle rig. If you would have had to draw, you would have done it from a bent-over position under great duress and leaving your child and yourself vulnerable.

Aside from that, good lessons learned.
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Old July 24, 2011, 11:21 PM   #42
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glad you're ok

the guy was an idiot. I can understand how you learned your lesson with the BUG issue; if you needed it, she probably would've pulled thru if it was ready to go which I am sure it was.

mikenice had a pretty good post in response to this earlier in the thread. No gun was necessary in this incident in my opinion, but if he charged or tried to get physical then the ante is upped. I am interested in what kind of threats or the length of time this incident happened? was this guy following you for a while and what was he shouting? another hothead scaring little girls...jeesh
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Old July 25, 2011, 07:31 AM   #43
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My first post on TFL but, I have been learning things here for the last year.

Tonight I went with my daughter to get a treat at the ice cream shop down the road. I was unbuckling her from her car seat (she is 3 years old) when a car blaring music pulled up very close to my open door. I grabbed my truck door because it was so close. I thought nothing of it and helped my daughter from the truck. We made it 20 feet away from the truck when the driver of the other car started yelling at us. He was angry that I yanked my door out of the way. I guess I offended him. He was being very threatening verbally and was advancing towards us. Here is my problem. I left my main carry gun at home. I only had my BUG on my ankle. I was in a very bad situation, if he made real on his threats.

I remained calm and stepped in front of my 3 year old. I slowly walked away from him without breaking eye contact. i told him I didn't mean anything by moving my door and that I didn't have a problem with him. My daughter was scared and crying. I made it out into the parking lot with two cars between us before he finally disengaged.

All I could think through this whole incident was what a dumb ### I am.

What would have happened if he had ran at me with only my BUG on my ankle. I cringe at the thought. Mostly for my daughter.

I am now looking at pocket holsters for the LC9 I am going to buy Monday.

Anyone else ever use an ankle holster for their BUG? I would like to hear your thoughts.

JUMP
Why on earth are you beating yourself up?
1. You did the appropriate, logical, and smart thing by de-escalating the situation. Not only was it smart it was something many of us would be hard pressed to do once your daughter started crying (that whole parental bear response). But better to walki away then escalate and have the daughter witness a full on confrontation - its a "teachable moment" (sorry...) for her and you could use it to talk through de-escalating things in the future.

2. You had your BUG gun. thats kinda the point of having it isn't it?
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Old July 25, 2011, 07:35 AM   #44
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Ankle holsters are still a very viable option for those who desire deep concealment. I, for one, do not discount them out of hand.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old July 25, 2011, 09:14 AM   #45
Hiker 1
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Ankle holsters are still a very viable option for those who desire deep concealment

I'm sure that's true, but in JUMP's case, if he had needed to draw, he would have had to do it from a compromised body position quite possibly with the bad guy at contact range and with a weapon of his own. With a small child to defend, another type of carry would have been optimum. Live and learn.
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Old July 25, 2011, 09:23 AM   #46
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My friend just took a required course to get his CCW. Luckily I only had to have Hunters Ed for mine. He informed me of all the things they taught him about how not to get arrested or sued in a conflict such as that. Its ridiculous.
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Old July 25, 2011, 09:27 AM   #47
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Riverwalker- are you willing to take punches from an "unarmed" aggressor before considering yourself to be in danger of great bodily harm?

If the nutjob advances quickly and strikes the right way, all it takes is one hit and it's all over.
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Old July 25, 2011, 09:29 AM   #48
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Heres my two cents worth: I am 66 years old, and Im not gonna knock
around on the ground with some guy 20 years my junior! Aint happening!
I have been in this situation, with a younger attacker, and I shot him!
There is something known as "disparity of force" when an older person is
faced by a much younger attacker, as I was. While I think the OP did fine,
I think I might have handled it a little different. These guys pull this crap
on seemingly timid targets all the time, its why they feel emboldened to do
this stuff. I think that if a few of em get capped by those "timid" folks, then
word will get around in their little groups.
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Old July 25, 2011, 09:44 AM   #49
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Riverwalker- are you willing to take punches from an "unarmed" aggressor before considering yourself to be in danger of great bodily harm?

If the nutjob advances quickly and strikes the right way, all it takes is one hit and it's all over.
Laws of different states vary. Many states require the standard of fear of death of severe injury. Defending yourself in a courtroom is going to be an incredibly expense process, one not to be taken likely, and the burden will be upon you to prove that was the situation. Depending on the situation, and jurisdiction, that may be extremely difficult.
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Old July 25, 2011, 10:06 AM   #50
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I left my main carry gun at home.
A fine lot of good it did you there, huh?

Lesson learned.

You did well, as you got out of the deal unscathed and not in legal trouble.

That said, that outcome was because the goblin did not attack you. Trust goblins to act logically/rationally at your peril- there is no telling what they will do.

riverwalker: Fists can kill you. If you let a thug get up on you and start landing blows before you get a grip, you may not be able to remain conscious to decide it's time to draw ..... let alone get the gun out and into action....... 21 feet is/1.5 sec isvery little time to act as it is ..... why throw that away?
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