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View Poll Results: If federal laws allowed CCW on aircraft with a class of instruction would you do it?
No - Guns and planes dont mix 57 26.39%
Maybe depending on the hassle involved 34 15.74%
Yes but certification would have to be frequent for max safety 31 14.35%
Yes but only if certification was good for at least 3-5 years 94 43.52%
Voters: 216. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 18, 2011, 09:56 AM   #76
Smaug
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Much as I like guns, I think guns and planes don't mix. Especially ones that carry lots of people.

Great shot as I am, I'm just as likely to hit someone else or puncture the air seal on a plane as I am to hit the perp.

I'd sooner just wait for a hijackers to walk by, then pounce on him and twist his head off.

I think this is a moot point. Since the events of 9/11/2001, the ability of Americans to be cowed by hijackers on planes is much reduced. I think any time they try it again, they will be pounced on by everyone, and would be lucky to survive long enough to be take into custody.
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Old July 18, 2011, 09:59 AM   #77
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I think another person's right to life is before someone else's right to carry a firearm.
So in this case there must be no reason to ever carry a weapon for self-defense because you might kill the BG while attempting to stop the lethal attack on yourself or your family?

An airliner shot of out the sky might be a lot bigger price to pay than the truly horrible loss of a couple of innocent lives. (I am not making fun but text doesnt convey tone)
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Old July 18, 2011, 10:05 AM   #78
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I am for CCW but NO to CCW in airlines. Let the Air Marshalls handle it.

I am thinking about Super Tactical Joe causing a hole in the plane at high altitude - Will "Sorry" be enough to plug the hole.
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Old July 18, 2011, 10:15 AM   #79
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WISE words, Rodfac. I couldn't agree more.

Have a question for you, though. I am an active LEO who every once in a while has to travel for duty reasons, and obviously I carry my duty pistol (92FS in my case) with me. The procedure in my country is as follows; we check-in at the counter and produce a document we may call "duty order" (stating we are on duty assignment and travel for that reason) together with our badge. Then get a red stamp on our boarding card, and when boarding, a steward/ess will lead us to the cockpit where we report to the Captain. He is, then, the final authority, of course, and has the right to keep the magazines/ammunition with him (NOT the pistol). However, this seldom happens (just once to me), since there's a mutual professional trust, and most Captains just ask us to make sure the weapon is not "hot" and to keep the magazine out of the pistol and an empty chamber. The fact that this one Captain asked for my magazines had to do, IMO, with the fact that this particular guy wasn't an ex-(Spanish) Air Force guy. Question is, how is it done in the States in the event you get LEOs flying in domestic flights with their weapon on them?. Is there any difference regarding that they'd be on duty or travelling on their own for vacation, for example?. My curiosity arose when you mentioned you used to be a pilot .

I ask this because for us here, travelling with firearms on duty is permitted (with the formalities above mentioned) but, off-duty, the Captain can refuse that you travel with your firearm, and you wouln't be able to board. When travelling on vacation, if we do want to travel with firearms, we have to check them in inside our luggage.

@ BGutzman: I'm not a native English speaker, and even though I speak something similar to English , in this case, I haven't explained myself well, I guess. What I mean is that the right to travel safely, therefore, right to life, should be above anyone else's right to carry a firearm. Nothing to do with that you mentioned .

Last edited by Nordeste; July 18, 2011 at 10:27 AM.
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Old July 18, 2011, 10:19 AM   #80
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There's a lot of FUD in this thread. Don't believe anything anyone says about security, procedures, marshals, or LEOs, because all of that information is sensitive and they are either stupid for revealing it, or they don't know what they're talking about.

The whole question about support for a law allowing CCW carry on an airliner is moot too because the captain has final authority, and most probably won't let you. I know I wouldn't (and I'm pro gun). It doesn't matter what the law allows you to do, the captain can deny you.

Last edited by Ralgha; July 18, 2011 at 10:24 AM.
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Old July 18, 2011, 10:23 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordeste View Post
Question is, how is it done in the States in the event you get LEOs flying in domestic flights with their weapon on them?. Is there any difference regarding that they'd be on duty or travelling on their own for vacation, for example?. My curiosity arose when you mentioned you used to be a pilot .
Anyone who actually knows the answer to your question can't tell you, so don't believe any answers you get. Sorry...
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Old July 18, 2011, 10:40 AM   #82
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Anyone who actually knows the answer to your question can't tell you, so don't believe any answers you get. Sorry...
Fair enough. It makes sense. But there's still a difference between an Air Marshal and a regular (be it Federal or State level) police officer. The Air Marshall is trained for that environment, a regular cop may not be, and may not be allowed to travel with his firearm, hence my question.

"Air Marshals" as you understand them in the US do not exist here. Instead, we have officers who get the training and qualify for those duties, but do not belong to a separate law enforcement agency, but instead, to any of the two national level police forces we have.
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Old July 18, 2011, 10:50 AM   #83
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I would love to be able to carry my handgun on an Airplane. I have no actual use for it on the airplane, but going to and from the airport, I'd like to have my gun where I always carry it. Since I rarely check baggage, that means that if I am traveling by plane, I don't get to bring my gun. Yes, this would make a huge difference to me.
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Old July 18, 2011, 11:26 AM   #84
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@ BGutzman: I'm not a native English speaker, and even though I speak something similar to English , in this case, I haven't explained myself well, I guess. What I mean is that the right to travel safely, therefore, right to life, should be above anyone else's right to carry a firearm. Nothing to do with that you mentioned .
Thats kind of funny... not in a bad way.... I taught myself a fair amount of spanish while living in south and central america but I dont write it at all.. I am assuming that you speak spanish at home.

I think we still have a disconnect in our conversation but I greatly appreciate your efforts to have a good conversation with me!
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Old July 18, 2011, 12:14 PM   #85
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Thats kind of funny... not in a bad way.... I taught myself a fair amount of spanish while living in south and central america but I dont write it at all.. I am assuming that you speak spanish at home.

I think we still have a disconnect in our conversation but I greatly appreciate your efforts to have a good conversation with me!
Glad to hear that. Yep, we do speak Spanish at home. Spanish is not that difficult to write, English is more difficult, IMO. Just bear in mind that whenever you hear a word in my language you know how to write it down (few exceptions apply) and how to pronounce it, if you're reading it. It's just a matter of learning the rules .

I read again your previous comment and don't see the disconnect you mention... In fact I think I get what you mean in the last paragraph.
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Old July 18, 2011, 06:21 PM   #86
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CCW on airlines

Would I get my CCW to carry on airlines??? Absolutely not. Simply because I refuse to fly anymore. Not that I am afraid to fly. In fact I am a private pilot. However, I refuse to relinquish my rights as a citizen to be searched the way the TSA is now doing. Sooner or later we have to make a stand as to what crosses the line. This is where I have drawn my line in the sand.
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Old July 18, 2011, 08:48 PM   #87
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Nordeste...airline and FAA procedures regarding LEO's carrying their duty weapons on board are not publicly discussed here in the US. Suffice it to say the the crew is aware that there is an armed individual on board, and his seating location....HTH's Rodfac
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Old July 19, 2011, 01:33 AM   #88
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How does the law work with aircraft? Could a person legally carry on a private plane?
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Old July 19, 2011, 01:59 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambino View Post
How does the law work with aircraft? Could a person legally carry on a private plane?
Yes, you can carry on a private plane. It would be a little sticky with state laws. In the air you would probably be fine following only federal law and giving the finger to state laws, but once you land, you'd probably best make sure you were in compliance with the state laws where you landed.

States sometimes try to impose their rules on aircraft and pilots and generally meet with very little success in doing so; however, the penalties for gun related infractions are generally much worse than for the other laws they try to impose, so it could be a big chance to buck them.

I am, of course, not a lawyer and your mileage may vary, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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Old July 19, 2011, 06:20 AM   #90
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Yes I would,I rarely fly but Ill get any trainning that allows me the oppertunity to remain armed.
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Old July 19, 2011, 12:11 PM   #91
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There is a reason the FAM's have one of, if not the most difficult pistol qualification courses around.
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Old July 19, 2011, 12:55 PM   #92
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Didnt read the entire article. But wanted to throw my .02 in.

Even after an 8 hour course there are still people out there I dont think should own guns.

Watch these two videos. If I got shot by some over achiever there may a problem with me not returning fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_...eature=related
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Old July 19, 2011, 05:57 PM   #93
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Watch these two videos. If I got shot by some over achiever there may a problem with me not returning fire.
I would like to see the same with 10 members of this forum chosen at random.

I get your point but CCW also generally means that you continue to hone skills and practice Also CCW doesnt make you some commando nor suddenly train you as a LEO. The test were unfair.

The kid with the pellet shooting is squeezing the trigger like its a target shooting session at a static range not slapping the trigger and he was not practiced at withdrawing the weapon from under his shirt but rather simply pointing and shooting.

The layout of the room may be usual for some university but is far more restrictive than any college room I have been in. The horseshoe shape of the room was designed to keep the flanking shooter hidden. This was an exercise with a pre determined outcome.

Again I get your point but these videos are worthless.
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Old July 19, 2011, 07:11 PM   #94
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I think a requirement of certain ammo would be a better option. Don't want some moron shooting armor piercing bullets in the air.
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Old July 19, 2011, 07:56 PM   #95
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No way

I seriously doubt even if it was legal to carry a firearm on a commercial aircraft that any airlines would actually permit it. Could you imagine how much revenue Southwest would lose if Bubba accidentally shot a hole in the fuselage of a $150,000,000 Boeing 767? That's a HUGE risk for their insurers and I'm sure it would never be permitted.

Personally, I have no desire to be stuck in a metal can, flying at 450 knots, 30,000 feet above the Earth with someone packing a gun. I'm a firm believer in the right to carry, but I feel there are situations where the safety of others around you trumps that right.
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Old July 19, 2011, 08:12 PM   #96
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I'd stop flying. It's a crazy idea. I think Archie Bunker suggested arming the passengers in order to stop hijackings. He was doing an editorial on the local news. Funny then, but scary in reality.
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Old July 19, 2011, 10:31 PM   #97
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There are apparently a lot of folks here who still believe in explosive decompression as taught by Hollywood and that FAMs are somehow the world's greatest gunhandlers and marksman. Amazing. Remember that the people who are making the rules and who are responsible for aircraft safety and security are the SAME people who were in charge on the morning of Sept. 11 and who were unable to do ANYTHING about four hijacked airliners flying around the CONUS for an hour or so. Including our $400 billion dollar a year Air Force. Until this situation changes significantly I am with the folks who stated they will not fly commercial (and have not) with the policies and procedures we now have in place. Especially the use of the TSA who told Joe Foss that they were confiscating his Medal of Honor because it might be a possible weapon and when he asked them what they were going to do with it he was told they were going to throw it into a trash can. The reason they don't want you to be able to defend yourself on a commercial aircraft is quite simply that the airline's insurance carriers don't want to risk litigation. As long as they are safe from lawsuits they couldn't care less how many airliners get hijacked. It's all about money. It always is and always has been.

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Old July 19, 2011, 10:35 PM   #98
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So in this fantasy world that would legally allow CC on a commercial plane I would say Yes (more like maybe) depending on the boarding process.

An 8-hr class is a piece of cake, if thats all it took to be 'certified' to carry on the plane. I would imagine the check-in and boarding process would have to be different if a person decides to CC on a commercial flight, which would include discretely declaring that you have a concealed firearm, different security checkpoints than non-carrying passengers, etc.

And finally, if it means not getting groped by TSA I'm all for it!
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Old July 19, 2011, 11:04 PM   #99
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open source information; FAM/FFDO program standards....

I can't speak for every post or topic related data listed here but the information I brought up is mostly from open sources & the media.
I can see how or why firearms qualifications are strict for FAMs or Flight Deck Officers. Being trained in the use of non-lethal weapons like EDWs(Tasers), OC spray & ASPs/PR24s may help a lot too.
A more common problem seems to be intoxicated or unstable airline passengers.
I do not travel by aircraft often but I was looking at the 2011 Safariland product catalog and put some thought to carrying a few compact zip-ties or "Flexi-cuffs"(the US Army term) if allowed by TSA/FAA regs. These strong, plastic ties could detain a subject(s) until the plane could land safely.
These safety & counter-terrorist issues are no joke. My sister's good friend worked as a flight attendant based in LA for Alaska Airlnes. He had to leave the airline position due to stress & mental health reasons. He said he worked on 2 different flights that had documented incidents of "suspicious" actions & possible terrorist activity. His fear & anxiety finally became to much.
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Old July 19, 2011, 11:15 PM   #100
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There would be at least one "that guy" carrying a bear gun in 454 Casull or 500 magnum....

I'm mixed on the issue. And since it's fantasy, I won't stretch my brain on it.
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