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Old July 13, 2011, 09:29 AM   #76
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(Pulling the moderator hat on for a moment )

Hey guys,

In your replies here, you might want to remember that it's a bad idea to broadcast your intent to commit MURDER if you think you can get away with it. That's not just likely to land you in prison someday; it's also likely to get you banned from TFL based on our forum rules.

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Old July 13, 2011, 09:53 AM   #77
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scumbag
Quote:
human filth


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Old July 13, 2011, 10:04 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by redstategunnut View Post
From the video, it appears he executed a defenseless man who no longer posed a threat. The sentence is just.
+1

Another sad hit to responsible gun owners. It will no doubt be used by the antis as an example of why we all should be disarmed.


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Old July 13, 2011, 10:36 AM   #79
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how do we know the robber wasn't still a threat pointing a gun at him while lying on the ground?
Because Ersland casually walked by him and took his time? And because the robber was unarmed (as seen in the video and concluded from the evidence)

Quote:
i say give the hard working business owner the benefit of the doubt, rather than the scumbag robber.
1) There is no doubt

Mr. Ersland shot a harmless (at that moment) teenager 5 times with the clear intention to kill him.

2) Why immediately make a "hard working business owner" of him? We don't know him...
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Old July 13, 2011, 10:53 AM   #80
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2) Why immediately make a "hard working business owner" of him? We don't know him...
We don't know him, but we are certain he committed murder. There is nothing wrong with the hard working moniker, but it doesn't change the fact that he murdered. Lots of hard working people break the law and many do commit murder. Hard working and legal behavior are not necessarily relevant to one another, nor is being a vet, an officer in the military, a doctor in his field, gun owner or CCW person.

Besides, there were plenty of interviews with people who worked with him to indicate he was a hard worker. He has an award fronm the military (during Desert Storm) for his hard work. From the news article I cited above...

Quote:
A citation for an Air Force Commendation Medal described his service during the 1990-91 conflict.

"During Operations DESERT SHIELD/STORM, he worked many nights and weekends coordinating the uninterrupted flow of medical supplies, nerve agent antidotes and immunizations,” the citation states. "Under strenuous working conditions, with low manning and high demand, his leadership enabled the pharmacy to keep their error rate at an all-time low.”
Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-drug...#ixzz1S07LdHj9

It would appear that he was indeed hard working.
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Old July 13, 2011, 01:07 PM   #81
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Important lesson...

MLeake, I agree with you 100%. More importantly we both agree with the DA. In the DA's press conference he stated that:

Quote:
1. Up until Mr. Ersland retrieved the second gun and fired five shots in to the decedent, it was a good self defense shooting.

2. This charge should not discourage anyone from buying a gun for self defense as that is the right of every citizen.
As I watched I could tell that it broke the DA's heart to have to file these charges; yet being under the rule of law he had to file the charges.

I Believe that this is an excellent case study for ALL gun owners to underscore the training and knowledge required to use a gun for self defense without crossing the line and becoming a murderer. Watch the videos of this incident and you can clearly identify the point when the defense ended and the line toward murder was crossed.
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Old July 13, 2011, 01:08 PM   #82
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QUOTE: THE KLAWMAN
I agree with the verdict. The worse thing the dead guy did was to attempt an armed robbery. Had the first shot to the head killed him, that would have been just, but you do not execute an unconsicous human being for attempted armed robbery. I am surprised that the pharmacist's attorney wasn't able to plea him out to 2nd degree. This was clearly premeditated, but the DA would have been worried about jury nullification. My guess is the pharmacist ran his mouth too much when the police arrived and hung himself with his own words.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure I agree with the verdict. In Texas this pharmacist would have had the right to shoot him during an attempted robbery, when they came in with the ski masks on, because one does not have to wait for the BG to draw., but not to continue shooting him as he did. Maybe if he had used a 45 one shot would have done the job. And you are probably right about him running his mouth. I think you should just claim self defense, and defer answering any questions till you get your attorney there. Some of the things I have heard about this shooting is that he shot the guy till he stopped moving. Just the same I would not have been able to vote for a guilty verdict but I would have voted for a manslaughter verdict, maybe even second degree murder. I was not aware that he went back and got a second weapon, and strolled around awhile after the first robber got away.
If that is what happened, that probably swayed the jury to first degree murder.
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Old July 13, 2011, 01:46 PM   #83
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I may have had qualms about voting to convict for 1st Degree, had I been on the jury, though I likely would have done so. For 2nd degree, I wouldn't have hesitated to convict.

Years ago, when I took my pistol class for CCW quals, the head instructor was a reserve cop, retired SecOps, CSI, gun crime expert court witness, gunsmith, gunshop owner. He said that if you are forced to defend yourself with a firearm you should keep something in mind:

If you are in a public place and don't have several witnesses around to corroborate your story ...

If you tell the police that you "killed them in self defense," the cop will write in his little notebook, "Suspect admitted to killing victim."

As such, the only thing you should say is, "I'm sorry officer, I'm very upset right now. If you have any questions please submit them, in writing, to my attorney."

Your mileage my vary, of course. Ersland was stupid to do what he did, he then compounded the fact via his post action behavior.
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Old July 13, 2011, 02:27 PM   #84
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I was watching FOX news and this case was shown on it last night. I think they might be trying to change the verdict. Dont get me wrong this guy did something horrible, shooting a unconcious person (BG or not). However, maybe he should do 25 years or something instead of like in prision. Like I said I am on the fence with this one. He did something VERY wrong--- Im not sure if like in prision is the correct sentence.

Tachi-- I agree, his post shooting behavior made it worse for him.
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Old July 13, 2011, 02:53 PM   #85
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Actually in many jurisdictions it is a defense, which means one you adduce sufficient evidence to raise it, the gov't must disprove it BARD.
name a place that the state must prove the self defense claim BARD.

It is an affirmative defense in every state I have examined (around 34 or so presently).

You admit to the shooting, then must show it was not a criminal act.

The state does not have to prove a whole lot at that point.
The burden has shifted.
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Old July 13, 2011, 03:07 PM   #86
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Ummm..murder IS a horrible thing. People who commit murder, do deserve life in prison. Some cases they get the death penalty, so he got a break.
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Old July 13, 2011, 03:14 PM   #87
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What you fail to realize is that there were three scumbags involved in that robbery and only 2 were robbers.
5 actually. There were two older men waiting in the getaway car that supposidly were the ones who convinced the two in the store to do the job. 3 of them were convicted of 1st degree murder, the gunman was only 14.

Someone asked how he justified those 5 shots, he said that the kid was still moving and therefor still a threat.
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Old July 13, 2011, 03:43 PM   #88
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It is an affirmative defense in every state I have examined (around 34 or so presently).
Well I guess you have to examine Article 10 and Article 35 of the NYS penal Code.

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Old July 13, 2011, 04:11 PM   #89
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Not going to say any names here but am I the only one who gets the feeling that someone in this thread kinda thinks that the pharmacist is the real evil dude who started all this crap and he is the reason that robber is dead...no icedog88 ( oops )...we disagree..the robber deserved his fate..and brought it on himself when he chose that lifestyle...I have no pity whatsoever......as many cops and innocent people get sued and have bad things happen to them its almost....almost...true to say that the law favors the criminals more than it does people who try to obey every letter of it...every singe day half of our government is trying to disarm the law abiding citizens which will give criminals free reign over us.....im sorry for the rant and maybe I am just seriously confused but that dude might as well have shot himself after that robber...his life is over now
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Old July 13, 2011, 04:31 PM   #90
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that the pharmacist is the real evil dude
I cant say if he was or wasnt, but he did make a huge mistake in going to the drawer and getting another gun then shooting the guy 5 times.... Maybe he was just waiting for the chance to kill a person. I suspect that there are many just like that, waiting for the chance to use a gun and kill someone, rather than de escalate and both continue living. Is just my opinion tho and we all know how that one goes... but still......after reading many posts for a few years here........
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Old July 13, 2011, 04:39 PM   #91
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Not going to say any names here but am I the only one who gets the feeling that someone in this thread kinda thinks that the pharmacist is the real evil dude who started all this crap and he is the reason that robber is dead...no icedog88 ( oops )...we disagree..the robber deserved his fate..and brought it on himself when he chose that lifestyle...I have no pity whatsoever......as many cops and innocent people get sued and have bad things happen to them its almost....almost...true to say that the law favors the criminals more than it does people who try to obey every letter of it...every singe day half of our government is trying to disarm the law abiding citizens which will give criminals free reign over us.....im sorry for the rant and maybe I am just seriously confused but that dude might as well have shot himself after that robber...his life is over now
Yes, the robber chose that lifestyle, but that doesn't give someone the right to execute him without any kind of due process. If someone broke into your house and fell down the stairs, would you be right putting one between his eyes as he lays there unconscious? Self defence is one thing, vigilantism is something completely different.
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Old July 13, 2011, 04:39 PM   #92
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Not going to say any names here but am I the only one who gets the feeling that someone in this thread kinda thinks that the pharmacist is the real evil dude who started all this crap and he is the reason that robber is dead.
:wavingjumpingupanddownsmiley: Thats me, thats me!

Name my name, I think that the Pharmacist is as evil and scumbaggy as any other murderer, and equally as scumbaggy as the guys who tried to rob him.

In fact more scumbaggy, becasue they picked on a guy who was upright and he picked on one that was down.

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Old July 13, 2011, 04:53 PM   #93
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I cannot imagine how any responsible gun owner or CHL holder can in any way defend the pharmacist. Since when do we want someone killed who is not a threat?

He got what he deserved, and the sentence is just.
I wonder how many cheering the shooting would do the same, or is it just macho talk?

The pharmacist is the reason the criminal is dead.

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Old July 13, 2011, 05:13 PM   #94
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Named!

I do think he is a bad dude. Evil denotes some sort of mystical demon to me. Not going that far but I will say again that the first shot was justified. Gf seems to think if he had better aim, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I agree with her. But the facts speak for themselves. No gun was found at the scene, therefore a man on the floor who had to be stepped over posed no significant threat anymore. End of story in my mind. Clearly had to think about getting second weapon and wasn't instinctual return fire. Proud to be NAMED!
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Old July 13, 2011, 06:11 PM   #95
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Not going to say any names here but am I the only one who gets the feeling that someone in this thread kinda thinks that the pharmacist is the real evil dude...
I do! And I'm not ashamed to say so.

I don't think Ersland started the situation. Not at all. But I do think he planned for it. I think he fully intended to kill (not stop, but kill) anyone who robbed his store. That makes him a bad guy in my book.

A good guy would intend to stop the threat and save human lives if someone attacked him. A good guy would be willing to risk killing an intruder if that was what it took to save innocent lives. A good guy would rather find any other reasonable way out of the situation than to kill, and would do almost anything to avoid killing unnecessarily.

But that wasn't Ersland's mindset. His mindset was that he would kill the intruder. He would shoot to kill. He would shoot the bad guy to the ground and he would keep shooting until the intruder was dead, dead, dead. One story, end of story. That was his mindset.

So when the situation did come up -- a situation entirely of someone else's doing, not his -- Ersland acted out his criminal mindset. He planned to kill and he did. He carried out the act he'd planned in his mind. And he thought everyone would consider him a hero for doing it, since all good people would agree that the intruder was nothing but a scumbag and a slimedog and criminal filth and garbage.

When Ersland took that first shot, the one that struck the intruder in the head, Ersland was 100% in the right. The intruder was immediately threatening Ersland's life and the lives of innocent others. That threat needed to be stopped and deadly force was an appropriate level of force given the severity of the threat. The intruder -- though unarmed -- was part of an attacking group that was armed and that was aggressing upon innocent people without provocation. Courts have repeatedly ruled that each member of such group jointly contributes to the fear experienced by the victims and thus each share the danger created by the victims' use of force in response. Regardless of Erland's almost-certainly criminal mindset at that point, his action of shooting the intruder in the head was not criminal -- not because Ersland intended to do the right thing, but because the action itself was a reasonable one under the circumstances.

When Ersland followed the armed intruder out the door and shot at him as he retreated, that action was probably not technically legal (it was a bit on the reckless side as far as bystanders were concerned). But it's the sort of thing anyone might do under the circumstances; excusable if not justifiable. Nobody was harmed by it, but it was dangerous and perhaps reckless. That's the point at which good people could make allowances for fear and stress. Even though chasing the criminal out the door at shooting at his back as he retreated wasn't technically legal, it could be "an understandable mistake" from a man who "went too far" under the influence of stress and fear and adrenalin.

But that's not all that happened.

What Ersland did next was not a mistake. It wasn't simply "going too far." It was pure evil. It was wrong, it was bad, and it showed his criminal mindset to the world. Instead of staying safe and keeping others safe, here's what Ersland did. He
  • walked back into the store with an empty revolver
  • glanced at the downed intruder
  • transfered the revolver to his non-shooting hand
  • held the revolver in a non-shooting grip
  • turned his back on the intruder
  • retrieved his keys
  • unlocked a drawer
  • got a second firearm out of the drawer
  • walked (not ran, not stayed behind cover and leaned out, but walked) back over to the intruder
  • and fired repeatedly at the unconscious and unmoving man.

In other words, long before this situation unfolded, Ersland formed the intent to kill.

When the situation presented itself, Ersland did kill. Ersland wasn't acting to stop the robber, but to kill him. And he did so even though the intruder was no longer a threat to Ersland or to innocent others.

And then Ersland lied about it. Repeatedly.

He's in the right place.

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Old July 13, 2011, 06:17 PM   #96
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No my friend no macho talk here...but while we are saying how bad of a guy the pharmacist is..let us think back to the north hollywood bank robbers and how the cops swat team guys and every one eles turned a blind eye to the wounded guy laying on the ground and let him bleed out...now are we going to start some good ol fashion cop bashing here.....no I didn't think we would..now personally I have to pay every week almost 70 bucks for all my medical insurance ( just medical )..and it kinda sucks..but oh well...now if this robber would have lived with his head injury he would have had to be taken care of and housed and fed by my dime and all the other hard workers out there...and not to mention the pharmacist would be fighting pain and suffering law suits the rest of his life...because he shoot the poor liittle innocent robber...excuse me..you can label me illiterate redneck irresponsible gun owner not worthy of chl and hell throw me in jail for thinking this way...but the dirt bag got what he deserved and now what in my opinion is a good man is going to prison for the rest of his life for finishing a fight that he didn't start..while he was working at his job..not bothering anyone....is there any justice that is going to save me from that...there is a old saying that is true..we don't get justice we get the law...they are not the same anymore.......



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Old July 13, 2011, 06:25 PM   #97
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no sir..no macho stuff here....and while we zare saying how bad of a guy the pharmacist is...let us think back to the north hollywood shootout..and how the cops swat team and everyone eles turned a blind eye to the wounded guy on the ground and let him bleed out....now that we think of that...are we going to start some good ol fashion cop beating....no i didnt think so..and label me as illiterate redneck irresponcible gun owner not worthy of chl...i really care very little of your opinions...there is a old saying...we dont get justice anymore we get the law...that is very true..and alot of them where wrote by corrupt lawmakers and some criminals....but we must follow every letter.....and wait till you read this and judge me....i work 60 hours a week doing a crappy job and make 8 bucks a hour...and i have to pay 70 bucks a week for crappy health insurrance...now if that robber would have lived then he would have to be taken care of the rest of his life fed housed and medical care and its on my dime and every other hard working american...is that justice...no..its the law.....say im evil if you want to but that robber deserved his fate...and now a man is going to prison for the rest of his life for finishing a fight hed did not start while he was working a his own job not bothering anyone......have i missed somthing here...or am i just supposed to jump on the pity party wagon and go help the robbers family sue the living crap out of that guy because thats what us responcible gun owners do
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Old July 13, 2011, 06:27 PM   #98
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sorry my phone screwed up and i didnt know if my first post went through
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Old July 13, 2011, 06:33 PM   #99
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chadstrickland,

I'm not shedding a single tear for the intruder. Young as he was, he made his choices and he lived (and died) by those choices.

That doesn't make Ersland's actions any less evil, and it doesn't make Ersland any less a murderer.

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Old July 13, 2011, 06:48 PM   #100
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perhaps so pax......i know by your post you are very well educated and have worldly knowledge...smarter than me perhaps..but this is where me and you simply disagree..perhaps it was because of where i was raised that makes me think this way..a very harsh and backwooded area...where killing someone for the right reasons was still accepted...the old ways where dieing out with the old people but they still tried to ram it down our throats...i know i may be unique in my beliefs..but they are still my beliefs...i would like to think that i was not influenced to much by them....i may never know...but i do not think that manis evil for what he did....if he truely is..then i was raised around a bunch of very evil people..
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