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Old July 7, 2011, 08:05 PM   #1
Sefner
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Obama, The UN, and Guns

Well, looks like it's that time again, with the NRA email going around about the Small Arms Treaty and Obama taking our guns over the head of Congress via the UN and the HuffPo article about Obama's new gun control agenda.

So before it even starts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The United States Constitution, Article II, Section II, Paragraph II:
"[The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur;"
And from the SCotUS case Missouri v. Holland, the case many claim lays the groundwork for treaties being supreme over the Constitution:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
Acts of Congress are the supreme law of the land only when made in pursuance of the Constitution, while treaties are declared to be so when made under the authority of the United States. It is open to question whether the authority of the United States means more than the formal acts prescribed to make the convention.
There are two cases, Reid v. Covert (1957) and Medellin v. Texas that state that no treaty can come in direct violation of the Constitution and cast doubt on how broadly Missouri can be defined respectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid v. Covert
"... this Court has regularly and uniformly recognized the supremacy of the Constitution over a treaty"
And this was all via Wikipedia... this stuff isn't hard to find. Let's try to use this opportunity to educate some on our side about this issue so we can focus on more pressing and real matters.

It's sad that some on on our side resort to the same unreasonable scare-tactics that those on the other side also use.
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Old July 7, 2011, 09:11 PM   #2
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I recollect when this first came up months ago. The real problem is that, if signed and ratified by the Senate, it would give the President the power to legislate via executive order or federal regulation. For example, it requires registration of anyone manufacturing ammunition. That means the Executive Branch could require every reloader to register and be regulated by the federal government.
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:10 PM   #3
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Obama starts gun control

Executive orders will bypass congress!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_892633.html
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:15 PM   #4
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Keep your eye on the Small Arms Treaty. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456262
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:15 PM   #5
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Even if this is true (and there's no corroboration yet), executive orders are not a blank check. Congress can nullify them, and the courts can rule them unconstitutional.

Attempting to bypass the legislature to fast-track an unpopular agenda would be surefire political suicide.
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:18 PM   #6
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...and he'll find 2/3 of Congress willing to ratify this treaty where, exactly?
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:18 PM   #7
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He's working with the DoJ and the AG on this??? Aren't they both dealing with a few other little problems at the moment? Quite laughable, really....
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
...and he'll find 2/3 of Congress willing to ratify this treaty where, exactly?
That's the point I'm making.

To be more clear: It seems that every 6 months or so the UN Small Arms Treaty makes the e-mail rounds, sometimes a book comes out, sometimes it makes Drudge, about how Obama/Clinton/George Soros is going to take our guns via the Small Arms Treaty without having to go through Congress. It cannot happen this way, it is scare mongering.

I got an email earlier today from the NRA about it so that Wayne LaPierre can sell his new book. So I'm expecting it to make the rounds again. Just trying to head it off.
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:29 PM   #9
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I'm assuming he wants to push as much through as he can immediately, before Gunwalker goes any further.
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:31 PM   #10
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The Small Arms Treaty won't affect our rights in the U S at all.
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Old July 7, 2011, 11:00 PM   #11
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OH oh.. Cost of the sport is about to get higher.
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Old July 8, 2011, 12:49 AM   #12
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yeah and social security too!!
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Old July 8, 2011, 12:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
That's the point I'm making.
My apologies. I ran across the Huffpo thing this afternoon as well, and I fully expected doom and gloom. I misread your post at first as that. As it turns out, you and I are in total agreement. That makes you a really sharp guy.

Quote:
To be more clear: It seems that every 6 months or so the UN Small Arms Treaty makes the e-mail rounds, sometimes a book comes out, sometimes it makes Drudge, about how Obama/Clinton/George Soros is going to take our guns via the Small Arms Treaty without having to go through Congress.
Well, the HR45 thing burned itself out finally. The "expiring primer" thing petered out. Gosh, what's left? The gun culture can't go a day without some sort of drama, so folks keep dredging up the treaty.

(I'm also getting very weary of LaPierre's chicken little act)

Lately, that seems to be the idea that the President will try de facto gun control via executive order. Know what? I want him to try that. The other two branches of government would be all over it like hyenas on a limping zebra.

You know what worries me? That big asteroid they say is going to hit us next year. I know that no astronomer has ever seen it, that its trajectory defies the laws of physics, and that the culture that predicted it is now extinct, but the guy passing out pamphlets seemed pretty sure. Maybe I should panic and make drastic decisions.

Start hoarding ammo! Again!
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Old July 8, 2011, 01:22 AM   #14
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I think I just had an epiphany. He doesn't even want a second term.
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Old July 8, 2011, 01:42 AM   #15
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Guys, please Warn me if you're going to start hoarding ammo over this so I can go ahead and place my order online now.
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Old July 8, 2011, 03:18 AM   #16
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Here's what worries me.

On April 2, 2007, SCOTUS ruled that the EPA has power to regulate greenhouse gasses.
Quote:
"On April 2, 2007, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a landmark decision"...
http://www.populationmedia.org/wp-co...-authority.pdf

A recent EPA regulation effectively inflicts Cap and Trade on America, completely circumventing congress, where it failed miserably.

Quote:
"President Obama will veto the bill passed by the Republican House on Thursday, which prevents the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) from regulating greenhouse emissions."
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=42790

I'm wondering if a similar tactic couldn't be used to regulate access to ammunition by the BATFE, also bypassing congress, in compliance with the U.N. Treaty. That neat little trick would theoretically comply with 2A, (arms are still available, but ammunition is regulated), but strip it of its meaning, thus complying with the treaty.
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Old July 8, 2011, 07:02 AM   #17
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This is going to put Senate Democrats in an awkward spot. They will be forced to shoot down the inevitable nullification bills from the House and take the hit in their own campaigns, or pass it and put the President in the position of vetoing the bill and taking the hit o his campaign or nullifying his own EO.

Politically, I have no idea why the Administration would think pushing gun control now is a wise move. They are standing in a house fire bathed in gasoline and apparently their first thought was "Hey, let's kiss that rattlesnake while we're at it."
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Old July 8, 2011, 07:14 AM   #18
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As stated not good any sort of "new" laws and I am really concerned with the small arms treaty. Absolutely low down back door gun control
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Old July 8, 2011, 09:07 AM   #19
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The UN is still working on a proposed draft of the Small Arms Treaty and the next meeting on it isn't until 2012. If you want something to worry about, look at the CIFTA Treaty. It has already been signed (by Clinton) and ratifying it was something that President Obama listed as one of his top 19 priorities in 2008.

Which is not to say we don't need to be concerned about the UN Small Arms Treaty; but at this time I would rate it lower in priority than the ongoing Second Amendment litigation, the impending Executive Orders affecting firearms, and the ATF run amok in Gunwalker.
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Old July 8, 2011, 10:04 AM   #20
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2012 just cant get here fast enough... thats all Im saying...
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Old July 8, 2011, 10:25 AM   #21
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Merged two similar threads. Watch the pure politics.

What a genius idea, though!
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Old July 8, 2011, 06:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Executive orders will bypass congress!
Not bypass...interpret. That said, it won't bypass SCOTUS and the lower courts. Maybe NRA or someone will get a judge to say that the law cannot be enforced until all court cases go through.
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Old July 8, 2011, 06:55 PM   #23
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not to mention that an agency needs funding to enforce an executive order...Congress can refuse to approve funding to enforce it.

The courts have overturned executive orders from Truman and Clinton. Wonder what the SCOTUS would have to say on an executive order that conflicts with the 2nd Amendment rulings?
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Old July 8, 2011, 07:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Politically, I have no idea why the Administration would think pushing gun control now is a wise move. They are standing in a house fire bathed in gasoline and apparently their first thought was "Hey, let's kiss that rattlesnake while we're at it."
It could be that Obama has decided that no matter what he does, he has no chance in '12 anyway, so he's going to ram as much of his agenda down the country's throat as he can. As the saying goes, in for a penny, in for a pound.
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Old July 9, 2011, 12:10 AM   #25
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Simply bewildering...I can't in my 42 years of living, remember any other president, who so emphatically polarized a nation.
Perhaps Lyndon Johnson when he sent troops into Vietnam, but that was a tad bit before my time...Any old-timers here that can attest to the American climate during that era, in relation to the present?

I think the last time that things were this heated over something so personal, led us into Civil War...

(Mods: I'm not advocating, just surmising)
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