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Old July 11, 2011, 01:33 PM   #126
mrray13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
Maybe the individual needs to look at Blackhawk's Close Quarter Concealed holsters. You can't put your finger in the trigger guard because you need it to release the lock.

The holster in the video has the same layout as the CQC Serpa's. The only difference in the CQC and the holster in the vid is that the CQC is cut away in the front for a slightly quicker presentation.

I have both the standard Serpa, and the CQC Serpa. The trigger guard is covered in both by the retention mechanism.
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Old July 11, 2011, 02:30 PM   #127
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I don't have one for my 1911s but I use one for my Beretta, I studied it again. I don't see how its possible for the holster to be at fault if the "Four basic rules of handgun safety" are followed.

Treat every gun as it was loaded, (he was shooting, so that dosen't apply)

Never point at anything you don't want to shoot (like a leg)

Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot (the dude blew that one big time, and that is the cause of the ND)

Besure of your backstop (well the bullet did hit the ground safely after it went through his leg, so I guess I can't comment on that one).

A fifth would be not disenage your safety until you're ready to shoot, but I don't like that one, I replace it with NEVER TRUST A MANUEL SAFETY.

Still since he disengaged the safety while removing the gun from the holster, then he violated that one too.

No Sir, this is a pure 100% case of shooter error. Sorry can't blame the holster on this one.

Most ranges I shoot at, and any match or training session I conduct, violating the third rule would get you kicked off the range.
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Old July 11, 2011, 03:26 PM   #128
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Never had a issue from my serpa holster +1 for them and. -2 for putting finger on trigger before you are ready to fire
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Old July 11, 2011, 03:39 PM   #129
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Quote:
I don't have one for my 1911s but I use one for my Beretta, I studied it again. I don't see how its possible for the holster to be at fault if the "Four basic rules of handgun safety" are followed.
Quote:
A fifth would be not disenage your safety until you're ready to shoot, but I don't like that one, I replace it with NEVER TRUST A MANUEL SAFETY.
Well I guess you could ad a sixth or seventh or more safety rules to the 4 rules and come up with reasons this should not happen, but I don't think coming up with more addresses anything not already covered by the four for this instance.

Quote:
Still since he disengaged the safety while removing the gun from the holster, then he violated that one too.
No, actually he did not if the video is to be believed. The thumb safety was disengaged unintentionally as a result of trying to work the mechanism on the thumb drive holster that he was no longer wearing.
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Old July 11, 2011, 03:51 PM   #130
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I think he can be trusted in what he says. He didn't violate the gun safety laws intentionally. That being said, it isn't the holsters fault either, as Grebner says for himself. Just an unfortunate accident due to confusing different holster actions.
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Old July 11, 2011, 05:03 PM   #131
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Quote:
He didn't violate the gun safety laws intentionally
Intentionally or not, he screwed up.

I don't believe any one screws up intentionally. He said his "finger fell on the trigger".................Pardon me, the CDC holster is designed so as your finger is extended to the outside of the holster. As you pull the gun out the finger falls a long side the slide. If it "falls on the trigger" you screwed up.

Quote:
Well I guess you could ad a sixth or seventh or more safety rules to the 4 rules and come up with reasons this should not happen, but I don't think coming up with more addresses anything not already covered by the four for this instance.
I threw that 5th regarding the safety in for clarification, meaning the safety shouldn't be released until the gun is on target. But I added, NEVER TRUST A MECHANICAL SAFETY.

My contention is, if the four basic rules were followed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Sure, guns screw up, that I agree, I've had it happen my self. I had a Bullseye Wad gun double a time or two. It was an accident, but the only damage was I missed. I dropped a few points but I didn't hurt anything.

If you shoot at all, you're going to have accidents. Its a given, I've had more then my share but the Four Basics saved me as they would in the video if he'd followed them.

I harp on this because we have a bunch of new shooters that read these forums. We can't teach them to blame the equipment. If we have equipment failures (and we will have equipment failures) we can have accidental discharges. It the four basic firearm safety rules are followed, the accidental discharges wouldn't cause any harm.
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Old July 11, 2011, 05:28 PM   #132
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Quote:
I harp on this because we have a bunch of new shooters that read these forums. We can't teach them to blame the equipment. If we have equipment failures (and we will have equipment failures) we can have accidental discharges. It the four basic firearm safety rules are followed, the accidental discharges wouldn't cause any harm.
Well said Sir, and this is why I always take the time to read your posts on almost any topic.

I bought a CQC Serpa for my Glock 17 when I had it and never had an issue with it. I even used it for local competitions messing around, never a problem. Reaching for the gun my finger straight out would disengage the serpa... draw straight up... my finger would be along the frame... as normal draw from any holster.... point at target... extend out... once out... ONLY then did my trigger finger move from the frame to the trigger and bang at my intended target.

I recently just got another Serpa holster for free for a 1911.... after watching the video and listening to people blame the holster i tried my hardest to recreate this event.... albeit I cleared my firearm first.

Even when I arced my finger in and pressed that serpa lock a lot harder than you would ever need... and ripped the gun from the holster with all my fury... I could not get the thing to dry fire upon the draw, my finger ended on the frame every time. I even had the manual safety off to try it but still no "bang".

I trust them, and I think the guy in the video couldn't have done a better job because accidents DO happen.... they suck no matter what.... but he didn't blame the gear.... or try and go sue someone... he admitted his fault, and posted the video for all of us to learn from it.

On the otherside of the coin we have people who sue because they spill hot coffee on themselves.
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Old July 11, 2011, 07:02 PM   #133
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I give this guy props for putting it on youtube and talking about his ND. It was his fault and he is man enough to admit it. He blames the holster which may have made it difficult, but ultimatley its the user's fault. Like someone said booger hook off the trigger lol. I give him respect to show us his failure in order for all other shooters to benefit from it.
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Old July 11, 2011, 09:47 PM   #134
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It looks like he missed his foot by about an inch.

I'm assuming he must beleive that it's important to be able to fight CQ with a handgun, for him to spend time and money on it. I think it's ironic that so far the biggest threat to his safety has been himself.
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Old July 11, 2011, 10:26 PM   #135
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This ND had nothing to do with the holster other than that he wasn't prepared and he obviously expected the other holster. The Serpas are excellent holsters and I own and have used them many times without a single issue.
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Old July 11, 2011, 10:51 PM   #136
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Quote:
We can't teach them to blame the equipment. If we have equipment failures (and we will have equipment failures) we can have accidental discharges. It the four basic firearm safety rules are followed, the accidental discharges wouldn't cause any harm.
While this is true, it's still important to take the time to think about the equipment you're using.

I believe a little thought in this instance might have convinced the shooter not to use a thumb-release holster and then immediately switch to a gun with a thumb-release safety in a holster with a trigger-finger release.

That didn't CAUSE the problem, but it was certainly a contributor. There's no question that if he had done everything right there would have been no incident, but that still wouldn't have made switching between equipment that is basically incompatible on the same range trip a good idea.
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Old July 12, 2011, 06:57 AM   #137
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I posted this on the other thread but it was a dup thread so it was closed and I want to bring this point up again:

Training with multiple weapons and equipment causes confused muscle memory and decreases your proficiency with any single weapon system.

I'm not saying that skeet shooting makes you forget how to use your deer rifle. And if you have different models of handguns in different calibers - target shooting at the range is not going to be counter-productive. That type of activity is not a high-stress activity.

But if your're doing something like "CQC" training and you're switching between two different models of handgun in two similar but different holsters - you are messing yourself up. You are not training - you're in a constant state of untraining.
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Old July 12, 2011, 08:05 AM   #138
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But if you're doing something like "CQC" training and you're switching between two different models of handgun in two similar but different holsters - you are messing yourself up. You are not training - you're in a constant state of untraining.
Sorry, I have to disagree again.

First, I'm not harping on this for the sake of argument. I really need to know how this can happen before I get someone hurt, not because I'm old and set in my ways (although there is a lot to the latter).

I shoot several pistols/revolvers w/several types different holsters, including two CQC's (one for my Beretta, one for a revolver). Some leather holsters from my custom pancake holster for my 1911s, and Hoyt Breakfront for my duty revolver.

Everyone of them allow for the trigger finger to be extended along the slide or cylinder as the gun comes out.

Our club has some sort of match every other week. USPDA, Steel, ICORE, Run 'n Gun, Bowling pins. All require that you draw from the holster. I always shoot a second gun, requiring a holster change.

I just can't understand how changing gear (holsters and guns) would cause "your finger to fall on the trigger". The CQC requires your finger to lay along side of the holster to release the switch. As you pull the gun out, your finger slides up the holster and falls naturally along the slide, (or along the frame under the cylinder of a revolver), as you pull the gun from the holster, the finger goes to the trigger and you point at and push toward the target.

My two main guns for USPDA are my Beretta (CQC) and my Gold Cup (thumb break). The grip of the pistol is as you start to draw is pretty much the same, forming a V with your thumb and fingers as you come down on the grip, the thumb released the thumb break (if there is one) and goes to the safety to be released as you point toward the target. At the same time, the trigger finger is outside the holster, extended, and falls along side the frame as the gun clears the holster, going to the trigger and you point at the target.

There is a bit of difference in the grip of my revolvers for ICORE. On my M-64 I use my old duty Hoyt break front. With that one you grab the butt of the gun, extend your trigger finger along the out side of the holster and with the thumb and remaining fingers draw the revolver toward the front, and your finger goes to the trigger as you push toward the target. My second gun in ICORE is my 642 pocket revolver. I use it in the Blackhawk CQC, it works the same as the CQCs for my Semis.

The only difference in my "times" is do to my reloading. If the course requires several shots, then of course I'm faster with the Beretta's 18 rounds vs the Colt's 7. But to get the first shot, there is no difference.

I have a lot of different holsters, and I just can't understand how switching would cause you to loose out and go to the trigger while the gun comes out of the holster.

Since this thread started, I've gone out back several times to do some testing. The only way I can do it, is if I make a conscience effort to force my finger on the trigger.

It's all about muscle memory I agree. If you develop that memory to NEVER PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU'RE ON TARGET AND READY TO SHOOT. then you're gonna do that regardless of what type holster you use.

If someone here can tell me of a different holster that would cause this problem, please tell me, I'll go buy one to play with. But the Thumb Break VS release on the CQC just doesn't work. I deal with a lot of new shooters and really want to know where I'm wrong in the off chance I get someone hurt.
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Old July 12, 2011, 09:21 AM   #139
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Geez....I agree with Jim Marsh's comments on the first page entirely. They couldn't have designed it any better for a negligent discharge if they had tried. Too, it's my belief that the whole issue of retention in the holster is a LEO issue, and not one that in a civilian CCW situation is of real significance.

In a real life CCW shooting, the fine motor skills that require you to release the gun, using your trigger finger pushing in towards the trigger as the gun moves, are GONE. Short of a world class combat shooter, (and one who uses only one type of weapon and only one holster), none of us is likely capable of keeping that trigger finger where it belongs....it's just not worth the risk. Get a different, and better designed self defense holster.

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Old July 12, 2011, 09:50 AM   #140
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Sorry Rodfac,

There is more to pistol shooting then LE and SD.

Far more rounds are fired in action type competition then both the two above and that's where I'm addressing my concerns. Retention holsters ARE required in most of these compititions.

Quote:
none of us is likely capable of keeping that trigger finger where it belongs....
Thats not true, its training and muscle memory. At every place I shoot, putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range.

Again, for safety sake, I'm trying to find out what type of holster will cause the mistake of "finger falling on the trigger" before it's suppose to. I will get one and try it.

I'm searching for answers, if an equipment problem exist, I wont to find it before an accident happens.
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Old July 12, 2011, 11:04 AM   #141
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My contention is, if the four basic rules were followed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Right, and so all the nonsense about your fifth rule is immaterial. He wasn't trusting a mechanical safety and he didn't disengage it knowingly. The gun would have discharged with a Glock or Kahr as well.
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Old July 12, 2011, 12:05 PM   #142
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Tex seems to say in his explanation of "How did this happen?"

"I'd been practicing with my 511 thumb drive holster [sic] the 511 thumb drive is in the actual same postion as the safety on my Kimber [sic] when I went to draw my pistol I pushed down and took off the safety"

Yes I agree if he'd kept his finger out of the trigger...

But I don't think you can say if he'd kept his finger out of the trigger none of this other stuff would have happened - end of discussion.

Under normal non-stressful conditions, if you slowly reach into your holster to draw your 1911 - there is no way that you mistake the feel of flipping the safety of your pistol for the feel of activating the release of a holster. Because your mind is functioning much differently than it does when under stress.

This is me personallly - if I really think my life may depend on my ability to deploy a firearm, I'm not going to train with a bunch of different models and holsters. I want to get good with one thing and not confuse the issue.

I think that what happens sometimes is that the gun as entertainment, or gun as ego booster - interferes with the gun as a tool aspect of all this.

I love shooting, I wish I had 100 different models to play with and compare at the range.

But when you're talking about the gun as a self defense tool, goofing around with a bunch of different models is not practical.

I can see why people would have a few carry guns - Summer, Winter, casual or dressed up. A pocket pistol versus a larger pistol... there is a whole thread where people posted their reasons for a carry "rotation". But is a Glock that different from a Kimber? That much lighter, that much smaller? I mean we're not talking about the difference between a DB9 and Colt Commander. I am betting that these two pistols basically fill the same niche/function.

I think it probably pays to be cognizant of when we're doing things for the enjoyment factor, and maybe apply a little dicipline. If you are going to bet your life on being able to deploy a handgun, then it pays to be diciplined in your training, train well with the one or two pistols you really feel you need and forego having fun with the other pistols in those situations where you're possibly interfering with the training on your primary handgun.
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Old July 12, 2011, 04:47 PM   #143
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kraig....your comments below bear some comment...

Thats not true, its training and muscle memory. At every place I shoot, putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range.

Again, for safety sake, I'm trying to find out what type of holster will cause the mistake of "finger falling on the trigger" before it's suppose to. I will get one and try it.


I've got no beef with your contentions...but I'd submit that the average Joe's not going to get enough "training and muscle memory" to overcome a weak design...it just isn't going to happen. Given enough time, and no "fear factor" or what ever you'd like to call it, most of us can keep it safe...but wearing a holster intended for SD, LEO or some sort of speed competition game, with a design flaw that this one appears to sport is asking for trouble. As I recall, Front Sight's Defensive Handgun Course, discourages this type of button actuated retention device, for the danger of negligent discharge.

I'll reiterate and applaud 2nd your contention...."putting your finger on the trigger before you're lined up on the target will get you removed from the range..."....yep...that's my experience as well.

Bravo for adding to the discussion with well thought out points. We don't differ on much...I guess my comfort factor with the average Joe's safety concerns on a firing line is the major difference...and I've spent enough years on the "NRA bullseye circuit" to have seen a good bit of negligence. The speed events from the leather add another whole dimension of possibilities...good equipment, properly designed to eliminate as many safety obstacles as possible is a necessary requirement.

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Old July 12, 2011, 08:35 PM   #144
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rod

have you used one of the Serpa holsters?

i know the first time i used it, it was natural to put my finger where it's supposed to be, not inside the trigger guard, granted i was drawing very slowly

but the first time i took it to the range it was the same thing, straight to where it was supposed to be, up and at the target, inside the trigger guard, shoot.

add to that the fact that there were 23 people at the range that day, none of which that had used this type of holster before, only 3-4 that had used a Glock, and only about 10 that had shot more than a few rounds through a pistol

nobody had a ND through 3,000 rounds of ammo, and we were doing drills similar to what this guy was doing

the ONLY way to mess up and have a ND with this type of holster is to MESS UP...
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Old July 12, 2011, 09:17 PM   #145
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Wow ... Just ... Wow.

I watched all the videos, and noted all the potential Serpa "malfunctions." then I unloaded and tried to reproduce them with my CQC.

No joy.

One I was almost sure would happen, i.e. the holster twisting off of the paddle. Nope. I twisted, pulled, pushed, and torqued and did as many as possible simultaneously, wasn't happening. So I loosened the screws and tried again. And ... nope. The paddle and belt attachments have depressed areas slightly larger than the screw heads that hold it all in position even if the screws are loose, well, right up until the point where the screws are so loose they're already falling out. After all that, I remembered that I once got my CQC (on a belt, not paddle) hung up on a fence and it held most of my body weight for almost fifteen seconds as I worked myself loose. So, I'm not worried about it.

The one where the front sight binds on the plastic tension arm when the pistol is inserted backwards for one armed reloading? Especially with M&Ps? I carry an M&P. I jammed it in, wiggled it, pushed harder, twisted, hit it on the table. Couldn't get it to happen. I practice that particular reloading technique (along with several others) every time I run drills (1000 rounds every week), it's never happened. So, I'm not worried about it.

As for the "sand/grit/gravel jamming the release," yeah, I could see that happening. Due to my job, I've rolled around in the sand/gravel/dirt while wearing my CQC, it's never happened. I have several friends in the sandbox who use Serpas, and we all know how much soldiers roll around in the dirt, they have nothing but good things to say. So, I'm not worried about it.

I could possibly see the finger falling on the trigger as you draw because your adrenaline is pumping and your fine motor control is completely shot. I did the "You lookin at me?" in the mirror a few dozen times. Didn't happen. I'm not saying it couldn't, but, it never did. Maybe because I was thinking about it. Maybe because I have trained myself properly. Maybe because my heart wasn't going 150BPM+ or because my adrenaline wasn't pumping. On the other hand, I practice drills that include high exertion to the point of gasping for breath and shaking hands, and I can't ever remember it happening. So, I'm not worried about it.

Either way, I love my Serpas. They're all CQCs. I've had them for nearly five years and, other than one leather IWB I wear when dressed up and the low profile leather for my BUG, they're all I use. I'm not changing.

Oh, and, I'm not a LEO, but I do spend a lot of time in rough country, jumping fences, climbing various stuff, crawling into tight spaces, and/or rolling around on the ground; retention is important to me and I don't think it's a "for LEOs only" type of thing. If you never do anything active, you may not need it. For those of us who are active, I recommend it, and the CQC.

So? What's my final verdict? Well ...

I'm not worried about it.
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Old July 12, 2011, 09:44 PM   #146
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Tex's double speak

On the one hand I give Tex some credit for owning up to this mistake. On the other hand I take issue with some things in his second video.

First of all he says he "experienced a negligent discharge." Well - it's wasn't like a negligent discharge came out of the sky, descended upon him and he experienced it. He fired a bullet from his pistol into his leg- how about that? Secondly he starts to pontificate on "negligent discharges". The title of his second YouTube video is "NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES HAPPEN!”

His video sends mixed messages. He doesn't pinpoint exactly what he did wrong. On the one hand he says "I blame it purely on me". Then he says "The reason I share this is that negligent discharges happen." Then he says "I consider myself to be a safe and responsible gun owner [sic] things just tend to happen."

Well yes Tex, things tend to happen - specifically - BAD things tend to happen when you don't follow the basic rules of handgun safety, that's why they came up with those rules way back when. But other than that - contrary to what Tex says, things don't just "tend to happen". That's Hoplophobia, from a gun owner no less!

It's like he spends 2 minutes blaming the holster in a specific way and then says "I don't blame the holster; I blame it purely on me." Really?, cuz it sounds like he spends 2 minutes blaming the holster. Why did his finger curl into the trigger? Why did his thumb push down on and disengage the safety? He makes it sound like disengaging the safety was because of his work with the previous holster, and his finger curling into the trigger guard was because he hadn't hit the index mechanism: "then I pulled up, the gun did not release because I had not engaged the mechanism on the index mechanism, and so as I pulled up, I hit that, my finger curled into the trigger guard and I ripped a round into my leg." It sure sounds like he's blaming the holster to me! I didn't hear him say "I wasn't concentrating enough on keeping my finger off of the trigger..."



The truest thing he says: "After the shot went off, my training took over - I called my parents..."

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Old July 12, 2011, 10:02 PM   #147
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muscle memory confustion

I am new to hand guns,Got my semis in Feb and March, I have a G23 and G27and a BlackHawk Level 3 Tactical SERPA Holster, that is the only holster I had uptill just the other day I got the CrossBreed Super tuck. I have shot close to 9,000 rounds out of the 2 hand guns, only once that I came close to a ND / AD was when I was reholstering the semi that my index finger tip hit the edge of the holster and my finger kind of bent inward and I seen what I was doing and by the time I sent the mental inpuls to my arm, hand, finger,to stop and go in revers, my finger had rubbed the trigger but did not ingage the so called trigger saftey. In that instant my heart rate jumped. I am very, very concious now more than I was befor of where my index finger is when there is a weapon in my hand. Now I am practicing with the CrossBreed Holster.
From what I see is that it was muscle memory confustion
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Old July 15, 2011, 10:25 PM   #148
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T&Eing the Blackhawk SERPAs....

I saw an interesting YouTube clip of a young guy who was able to DX a Blackhawk SERPA holster in about 2min using dirt & packed snow(it was winter).
I could see a few problems or flaws with the SERPA format but in fairness a lot of "real world" ADs could be due to stress or user error NOT the holster design.
I'm now considering the black SERPA rig for my new M&P full size 9mmNATO. I'm left handed and it's not easy to find a low cost(under $50.00), well made security type holster in left hand. I like the belt/paddle & width-angle options with the polymer Blackhawk SERPAs.
Safariland ALS & SFS rigs are great but lack some of the same features.
ClydeFrog
ps; I like the Blade-tech Revolution line but the Smith & Wesson M&P model is not available yet in left hand.
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Old July 15, 2011, 11:09 PM   #149
roklok
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Join Date: October 20, 2008
Location: Fort Yukon, Alaska
Posts: 696
You guys NEED to watch this video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBIph_q0HzI

Same guy that shot himself, posted this video a couple months before. He is talking about the Serpa holster, quote "The Serpa is a professional holster..................if you are a dynamic stress virgin, your probably going to put a round down your leg if you are not properly trained". Looks like his prophecy came true.

Kinda sounds like the DEA agent right before putting a round in foot, "I am the only one professional enough.........."
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Old July 16, 2011, 12:45 AM   #150
ClydeFrog
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Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Deep undercover...

The popular chat room fodder about the above mentioned DEA special agent was in the metro Orlando Florida area.
To my limited understanding the sworn federal LE officer discharged a .40S&W round into the side of his leg NOT his foot.
In some extended versions of the video clip he stays upright & asks a woman to then hand him a tactical rifle(M4 5.56mm).
The startled crowd(mostly small children) then screams; NO!!!.
In the same video clip, the DEA agent appears to do a function check of the Glock .40 and says; "does it look clear?" then releases the Glock's magazine.
The "hidden" round(in the chamber) is what causes the injury.

I had a related event in the late 1990s with my 96D .40S&W but didn't have a ND or accident. I'd returned home, removed the Beretta pistol from the holster and released the loaded magazine. I left the slide forward & was about to pull the trigger when I quickly remembered to pull back the slide and look up & down the mag well/chamber. Watching the 165gr JHP fly out was a real "wake-up call"!

Safety is no accident!

Clyde F
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