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Old July 6, 2011, 06:30 PM   #101
the duck of death
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"QUOTE"
That is going to happen to the best of them once every so often.

You don't trust yourself--fine. Don't lay that crap on me!!!!

My Glock triggers are 2 lbs and I keep my finger off it on a draw. And I do a lot of shooting (daily) and a lot of drawing.
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Old July 6, 2011, 10:37 PM   #102
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Agreed.

The reason the pistol fired is that the shooter's finger pulled the trigger.

The reason the round hit the shooter in the leg is because the muzzle of the pistol was aiming at his leg when he pulled the trigger.

Don't blame the equipment when the shooter broke two basic laws of gun handling in front of a camera.


I'm familiar with several members of 2nd Bn, 7th Special Forces Group who used the Serpa holster during deployments to Afghanistan, and who engaged in combat while wearing it, and who returned with nothing but praise for the holster. It works just fine for people who understand how to use it.

Of course, they weren't hot-dogging for a video clip on YouTube.....
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Old July 6, 2011, 10:44 PM   #103
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Thank you, at least some of you realize the ND occured strictly because of the shooter, not the equipment.
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Old July 6, 2011, 11:53 PM   #104
ArizonaTRex
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OK I use this holster for both my Glock and 1911.
SO how about some comments from others on what I have noticed about my use.
First in comparing My fingers to the video of the guy telling me how to fix my holster-I have short fat fingers. I can easily lay my finger along the holster and the pad of my finger just rests on the release and the tip just barely extends past. So for me to curl my finger to release would be awkward.
Second, just laying my finger flat I get a nice smooth release.
And here is what I am curious about with other users-my finger does not lay "parallel" along the slide-its at a distinct angle pointing up across the slide. I have to actually move my finger down and then curl it into the trigger guard.. If I leave my finger straight and curl-on the Glock the tip of my finger lays directly on the tak- down release or if I really curl- on the pivot pin hole for the trigger.. On the 1911 it rrests on the slide release. ( I'm a lefty)
I have to bring my finger down then curl it to fire.
When I grip my pistols I am making the "peace symbol" sign as I grip to draw.
And I have never noticed my finger going into the trigger guard until after the gun is horizontal...but I am going to watch myself and see it that is really true.
Same grip with my leather.
Comparsions?
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Old July 7, 2011, 12:24 AM   #105
secret_agent_man
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Don't lay that crap on me!!!!
Famous last words. Stuff happens.

My worst nightmare is some dweeb in a checkout line in front of me trying to take his Glock out of a horizontal shoulder holster. Practice all one can, but when the dukey hits the fan, it ain't the same.
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Old July 7, 2011, 08:21 AM   #106
Shawn Thompson
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We have not arrived at the point of banning the Serpa holster from our classes; however, we have had a close call that was caught by one of our instructors.

The incident began with the release not being adequately depressed before removing the pistol from the holster. With the firearm being pulled with some amount of force, the pressure created binding against the release. In turn, the student applied substantial pressure, with his trigger finger, to overcome the binding on the release in an attempt to remove the pistol and complete the draw.

Had our instructor not seen this series of events as they unfolded, caught him and shoved the pistol back into the holster with both hands, we are confident that this students finger (under that much pressure) would have snapped into the trigger guard once it cleared the holster.

From the other incidents with Serpa holsters that we are aware of, this same set of circumstances is pretty much how the ND starts; missed release, binding pressure, hard press on release to overcome it, then bang when both the triger and the finger clear the holster. Which, from watching the video, appears to be similar to the series of events involved with this ND.

This isn't "Serpa Hate", but it does illustrate one very significant design flaw of the Serpa holster - The trigger finger serves one purpose and one purpose alone! It should not be convoluted with extraneous tasks moments prior to serving its function.
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Old July 7, 2011, 01:50 PM   #107
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Are you guys serious???

I can't believe what I am reading...You are blaming the holster and citing a "design flaw" because a few idiots can't keep their pointy-thing off of the bang-lever?

The design of the Serpa was genius, IMO. It merely simplifies the draw and allows the user to maintain focus on their attacker. I don't care how hard you try, if you utilize the holster properly,as the maker intended, you can not access the trigger. If someone is using the tip of their finger to depress the release, they are doing it wrong!

You should try teaching them the right way, instead of blaming the product.

Some of you sound as bad as the anti's..."Guns are inherently dangerous..."
It's not the gun and it's not the holster. {rant over}
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Old July 7, 2011, 02:46 PM   #108
Shawn Thompson
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Maybe you should re-read it then!

What I cited was an incident involving a set of circumstances that are similar in nature to other incidents where negligent discharges have resulted in injury. Including the one referenced in the OP.

At no time did I blame the holster!

There are plenty of people who use the Serpa holster who have NOT injured themselves; however, there appear to be more cases of negligent discharges resulting in personal injury with this specific holster, than any other equivalent type of retention holster.

Can you prove otherwise?
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Old July 7, 2011, 03:03 PM   #109
the duck of death
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Couple of thing I practice daily, for competitive shooting:

------------------WHEN DRAWING-------------

1. Weak hand goes to the stomach to get it out of the way.
2. Finger does not go the trigger until the gun is being pushed toward the target.

Remember if you want to be fast and safe it takes practice.

For retention I have found nothing wrong w/the Serpa, for competition/carry there are better choices.

*QUOTE*
Practice all one can, but when the dukey hits the fan, it ain't the same.

Once again you are trying to place your limitations on everyone. I practice so
when the "dukey hits the fan" I will be ready.

PS: I find no place in your nightmare, because I am not a dweeb.

Last edited by the duck of death; July 7, 2011 at 05:17 PM.
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Old July 7, 2011, 06:52 PM   #110
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I can't believe what I am reading...You are blaming the holster and citing a "design flaw"
Another perfect person, never going to make a mistake, get it wrong, not even once. And I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night and walked on water this morning in the shower.
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Old July 7, 2011, 07:37 PM   #111
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I own two Serpas, know several fellow officers who use them as duty rigs, and none of us have had NDs. The design is okay, but there can be issues.

As Shawn Thompson stated, if there is bind, or excessive pressure, the booger hook can indeed slide into the trigger guard. After reading about this type of situation, I had to see if it could truly happen, as I was definitely on the bus that said, "no way!! The design places the finger at a slight upward angle upon draw and you have to move the finger into the trigger guard."

So, I unloaded my G23, made sure it was empty and proceeded to do what one would call speed draws. On more then one occasion, my finger did indeed slide into the trigger guard, although it never pulled the trigger. And the only thing I was doing differently was attempting to draw as fast as I could,and applying quite a bit more pressure then needed to actuate the release, in an effort to replicate a high stress scene.

I initially qualified with a Serpa, and had no issues with it, even though I was going as fast as I could. But then again, qualifying isn't what I would call high stress either.

In any case, I agree in this case it's mostly shooter related, as he himself stated. Going from different guns and gear, and attempting to stay super fast, and what appeared to be a slight hangup (in the slow-moe, you can see his pants ride up. with a proper Serpa draw, that doesn't happen IME) with the holster, lead to the ND.

BTW, for the Serpa owners out there, I suggest doing what I did. Unload that EDC, make sure it's safe, and practice with your Serpa going as silly fast as you can. While it might not happen much, I'll wager your finger will indeed slide into the trigger guard. But give it an honest try, try to be super fast as though your life depended on it. Again, like in my case, maybe you won't actually pull the trigger, but I think you'll get at least one attempt that will slide into the trigger guard.

Also, just because it can happen, doesn't mean it will. Just as because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. The best safety is between our ears.

I still own and carry my Serpa holsters. I like them, and don't see myself getting rid of them anytime soon. I'm just more aware about training with them, and try to train as much as possible, with all my holsters.
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Old July 7, 2011, 07:55 PM   #112
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Another perfect person, never going to make a mistake
On the contrary...I have been known to err...The difference is, that I learn from my mistakes and don't blame inanimate objects and tools for them...

A tool is simply a device used to make things easier. It doesn't replace common sense or ability, but only enhances it. Complacency occurs when we allow our pride to override reality. If we become complacent, that is when accidents can happen.

No, I'm not perfect, but if you believe the old adage, "Practice makes perfect" then I will get there, eventually.
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Old July 7, 2011, 07:59 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoOfY-FoOt
A tool is simply a device used to make things easier. It doesn't replace common sense or ability, but only enhances it. Complacency occurs when we allow our pride to override reality. If we become complacent, that is when accidents can happen.
Well said.
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:31 PM   #114
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I see near accidental discharges with folks using Serpa holsters on a regular basis. Near as in, their finger contact the trigger upon their draw, but prior to their intending to contact the trigger. How do I know? I ask. What prevents the discharge? Engineering; i.e. longer and heavier trigger pulls.

The Safariland ALS is a much better option.
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Old July 7, 2011, 10:45 PM   #115
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horizontal shoulder rigs; drawing, safety, Secret Agent Man...

I'm a tad confused by Secret Agent Man's seeming detailed concerns about check out lines & horizontal shoulder holsters.

Is this a serious issue to cause concern?
FWIW: I toted a large NP3 plated Beretta 96D .40 in a left Aker comfort-flex shoulder holster. I once drew the 96D so fast, my friend was surprised by the speed.
My main point is that training & safety are what's important when dealing with firearms or gear.
A lot of "hard chargers" or "weekend Rambos" may want to wag their fingers or ball out other gun owners/shooters but I take a different approach.
I TALK & LISTEN to other shooters-gunners FIRST then offer my input.
As posted already, I too give the "Tex" guy credit for being honest & open.

CF
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Old July 8, 2011, 07:17 AM   #116
teeroux
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Quote:
Near as in, their finger contact the trigger upon their draw, but prior to their intending to contact the trigger.
If a persons finger is on the trigger before they intend it is not a design flaw of the holster its a handling/training flaw of the wielder. The person has put it into memory to go to the trigger instead of the frame. I use the ALS and the SERPAs and I have never had a problem drawing with either ,or any holster for that matter, where my trigger finger didn't index on the frame of the gun. The SERPA has speed on the ALS the ALS retention on the SERPA. Both are suited to different circumstances.

Bottom line if someone is finger on the trigger before aiming or pointing at a target they need to be corrected.
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Old July 8, 2011, 10:58 AM   #117
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Mrray13, thank you for doing some research and experimentation. Your results confirm what I had been thinking, that a "last shot of the day" quest for ""as fast as possible"" resulted in a ND and injury.

I also agree that mixing guns and holster types contributed. Perhaps if someone used Serpa holsters to the exclusion of all others, this issue would be reduced.

The problem is, in a life threatening situation that occurs suddenly, we are more, rather than less likely to mess up on the draw.
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Old July 8, 2011, 05:39 PM   #118
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~BOTTOM LINE~

When the pistol is at rest in a SERPA holster, it is impossible to pull the trigger.

Only when the pistol is drawn from the holster, is the trigger accessible.

Therefore, after drawing the weapon from a SERPA or any other brand or type of Level 2 holster, the holster itself, is no longer part of the action or involved in the sequence of movements, and CAN NOT be blamed for a ND.

To all of those who use a different style holster than the SERPA: Where is your trigger finger after you draw, before target acquisition? Is it sticking out away from the gun? NO. It is laying flat along the frame or slide and in most situations, the trigger guard prevents it from resting on the trigger, until you curl your finger. Just like the SERPA...
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Old July 8, 2011, 05:50 PM   #119
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Quote:
When the pistol is at rest in a SERPA holster, it is impossible to pull the trigger.

Only when the pistol is drawn from the holster, is the trigger accessible.
That goes for most all of the quality holsters.

Quote:
Therefore, after drawing the weapon from a SERPA or any other brand or type of Level 2 holster, the holster itself, is no longer part of the action or involved in the sequence of movements, and CAN NOT be blamed for a ND.
I dont agree. If youre pushing on a button hard enough, especially under stress, and still have a good amount of pressure dragging on the holster as the gun is released and comes up, then the holster 'has" contributed to the problem, as the pressure exerted, is still towards the gun.

I dont have that problem with any of the holsters I use, simply because I dont have anything that requires that specific motion to release the gun. My finger is in the same place, but there is no no pressure on the holster, towards the gun, on the draw.
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Old July 8, 2011, 10:07 PM   #120
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Speed vs security(retention), Fobus, training...

A main point brought up here different ways is that you can have a lot of speed or a lot of security but you can't have both.
The use of level one or open top holsters may be of value for armed citizens(CC use), range-outdoors or armed professionals in low threat areas but a level two or security holster would be better for other postions(armed security, LE officers, PIs/exec protection specialists, etc.

In the real world, there are very few incidents or events that rise to the lethal force level. Some critical incidents may have a valid need for weapon retention or security methods but those are rare.
The goal of any armed citizen or armed professional should be to find what weapon/holster/method works best and train properly for it.

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Old July 10, 2011, 07:20 PM   #121
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I see the Serpa as having a design that can create a safety risk. As we all know, there are a bunch of examples of people shooting themselves on the draw with these things. In addition to the incident that prompted this thread, I was just told about another one in my locale a couple of weeks ago at an IDPA match.

I also think the fact that a number of the "big name" instructors and schools won't allow them in their classes is pretty telling...

Say what you will about "shooter error," if the design of the holster creates a risk unless you do things "just right," I see it as being a bad design. I don't understand why these things have such a host of staunch defenders...it's not like you can't get a better holster for the same money.
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Old July 10, 2011, 07:32 PM   #122
GoOfY-FoOt
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Well, by the logic put forth by some here, there have apparently never been any ND's while drawing from any holster prior to the invention of the SERPA. We should all immediately head to the Blackhawk factory, find the inventor/designers and bring Judge Dredd with us, so that he can execute swift justice on those poor souls...(dripping sarcasm - over)
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Old July 10, 2011, 07:47 PM   #123
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Quote:
(dripping sarcasm - over)
Good. Glad you got that off your chest. Feel better?


I dont think logic has anything to do with it. There seems to be a definite trend here, and enough so that they are no longer accepted for use where other holsters are. What other holsters in use today seem to have the same or similar issues?

This isnt the first time the Serpa has drawn attention due to failures either. I remember a couple of months back there were complaints of failures to release the gun when the release got fouled.
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Old July 10, 2011, 09:44 PM   #124
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Maybe I missed something.

What I saw as the guy released the safety as he was drawing the gun. Then his finger went to the trigger as the gun was coming out of the holster.

Now I don't use a Serpa Holster but I have a lot of years (since 1966) shooting 1911 pistols. Two things I learned from the start that still work today 45 years later.

You draw the Pistol you don't release the safety until its pointed at the target.

You don't put your finger on the trigger until you have the pistol pointed at the target.

If either of the two above acts would have occurred, we wouldn't be discussing it.

If, and I saw no sign of this, the gun went off in the holster and the holster enclosed the trigger, then maybe I'd blame the holster.

When you grip a 1911, regardless of the type of holster, you thumb is resting above the safety, your trigger finger is along the slide on the other side. As you extend it toward the target your thumb slides down taking off the safety as your trigger finger goes to the trigger.

Disengaging the safety as you pull the gun out of the holster ain't the way to do it.

Maybe the individual needs to look at Blackhawk's Close Quarter Concealed holsters. You can't put your finger in the trigger guard because you need it to release the lock.

I'm more then willing to entertain any comments where I am wrong here.
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Old July 11, 2011, 01:21 PM   #125
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Quote:
You draw the Pistol you don't release the safety until its pointed at the target.

You don't put your finger on the trigger until you have the pistol pointed at the target.

If either of the two above acts would have occurred, we wouldn't be discussing it.

If, and I saw no sign of this, the gun went off in the holster and the holster enclosed the trigger, then maybe I'd blame the holster.

That's always how I draw all my guns! 100% Correct. Especially my 3lbs 1911 trigger.
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