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Old July 4, 2011, 06:18 PM   #76
JohnKSa
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I don't see this so much as a holster/gun issue. I see it as an issue where a shooter is trying to switch back and forth between equipment that is incompatible.

If you commonly use a pistol with a thumb safety then it seems extremely ill-advised to sometimes practice with a holster that has a thumb release in the same position that the thumb safety would be. Doesn't matter if you're using that holster with a different pistol that doesn't have a thumb safety because you're still teaching yourself a very bad habit. You're essentially training your thumb to release the thumb safety before drawing the gun.

I'm not quite sold on the idea that the SERPA release is dangerous but I will say that I can understand how it could contribute to unsafe trigger finger position under certain circumstances.
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Old July 4, 2011, 06:47 PM   #77
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I see this as an issue where a shooter is trying to switch back and forth between equipment that is incompatible.
This is my thoughts also.

The shooter switched from a thumb-break stlye holster in which he was shooting earlier that day to the Serpa thats a totally different style of draw.

Don't know about anyone else but the only holster I practice SD speed drawing with live ammo with is the one I cc in and I surely didn't start out fast or with loaded gun doing it.

The Serpa style holster is not my pick but if thats all a person trains with, they wouldn't want to switch to a thumb-break and speed draw with it or visa-versa. I wouldn't think.
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Old July 4, 2011, 07:12 PM   #78
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I agree the holster played a part in the ND. That said I believe a ND is always the shooters fault and can happen to anyone by pure statistics. If your finger is not on the trigger the gun does not go off...period. I understand how the holster is but I dont think it is the holsters fault. He admits hes at fault like a real shooter should. The gun only goes off when you pull the trigger.
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Old July 4, 2011, 07:31 PM   #79
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I don't see this so much as a holster/gun issue. I see it as an issue where a shooter is trying to switch back and forth between equipment that is incompatible.
I can't believe it took 3 full pages of posts before someone mentioned this. This was the first thing I thought of when I watched the video. Why would you run 2 holsters with different retention systems? I understand that a condition 1 1911 has different safety needs then a Glock, i.e. no thumb release, but if you are going to run retention holsters you need to pick one system that is compatible with any weapon you may carry.

For example, my duty rig is a Safariland SLS, which has a thumb actuated rotating hood. Hence, all of my retention holsters for all of my guns have very similar thumb actuated releases.

Still I have to give respect to the OP for putting this out there knowing what would come in the following replies. I hope your recovery is speedy.
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Old July 4, 2011, 07:31 PM   #80
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If your finger is not on the trigger the gun does not go off...period.

The gun only goes off when you pull the trigger.
Sometimes not. Depends on the gun.
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Old July 4, 2011, 08:21 PM   #81
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LOL. That is true... sad but true like a Nambu or something like it. I know its a Japanese WWII handgun that AD's in your holster whenever it may 'feel' like it.
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Old July 4, 2011, 08:30 PM   #82
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Open bolt SMG's have a tendency to not need a trigger from time to time too.
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Old July 4, 2011, 08:54 PM   #83
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Haha good point. That would be freaky, a gun with the mind of its own. Um.. I feel like discharging... NOW suprise!
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Old July 4, 2011, 10:23 PM   #84
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Posts; NDs-ADs, Bianchi's Law, holsters-weapon retention.....

I've read over a few of the topic posts and I agree with some of it. I also take issue with a few points;
I disagree with Jim March's remarks. The ND victim/1911a1 pistol shooter is talking in the video about his injury & his holster NOT other incidents, holsters or past events.
I also disagree with the member posts that say armed citizens or armed professionals(EP agents, security guards, PIs, etc) do not have to deal with weapon retention or secure holsters. Some clever or aggressive criminals may attempt to grab a firearm or over-power a armed citizen the same as a sworn LE officer. The Atlanta courtroom spree killer incident is a good example. That violent subject attacked & killed both uniformed LE officers & a off duty armed ICE special agent.
The use of different systems/holsters also may have been a factor in the ND also. It's important to remember; Bianchi's Law; Carry the same gun, in the same way, in the same holster, all the time.
Now this may not be practical for all conditions but practice & skill training help establish "muscle memory".
I do not completely knock the use of kydex or polymer rigs. I do see big drawbacks with the paddle holsters. To buy or carry high quality equipment is always a smart move too.

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Old July 4, 2011, 11:01 PM   #85
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Now this may not be practical for all conditions but practice & skill training help establish "muscle memory".
That appears to have been what the shooter was doing. Changing gear or the process of training involving facets such as new gear, new techniques, bettering technique, etc. puts the trainee into a liminal state. It is during training when people of often injured, knowing about what they are doing without actually inherently knowing what they are doing...geting to that point of having muscle memory. In other words, if you are learning, then it isn't all learned.

Quote:
LOL. That is true... sad but true like a Nambu or something like it. I know its a Japanese WWII handgun that AD's in your holster whenever it may 'feel' like it.
That was the Nambu Type 94. The gun did not discharge whenever it may "feel" like it, but when pressure was exerted on its exposed sear, a design flaw. So pressure on the holster area over the sear could transfer to the sear and cause a discharge. Inserting the gun into an improper holster, stiff holster, or holster fouled with another material such that pressure was put against the sear could also result in a discharge. However, this would only happen if the safety wasn't engaged. If the safety was engaged, then the sear was blocked and no discharge would occur.
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Old July 5, 2011, 10:26 AM   #86
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Bianchi's law is actually "Beware of the man who only owns one gun - he probably knows how to use it!"

But Clydefrog's interpertation is not far off the mark.
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Old July 5, 2011, 12:04 PM   #87
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Keep it simple.
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Old July 5, 2011, 12:20 PM   #88
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Man, why all the Serpa hate in this thread? The poor guy made a mistake, came out alive, and is a little wiser.
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Old July 5, 2011, 01:03 PM   #89
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I have and use 3 or 4 Blackhawk holsters, but they are the carbon fiber
model (all non-serpa).
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Old July 5, 2011, 02:20 PM   #90
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I had a Serpa holster for my Glock 17... I thought it worked perfectly... was fast and easy to unlock and draw the firearm... and kept my finger right in line with the slide / frame... exactly how I drew from any other holster.

If you watch the video.. to ME it seems like he is just trying to go as fast as possible... clears the holster... then puts his finger in the trigger before he should have... in order to be "faster" for his video.

Notice he didn't blame the holster.... nor is he trying to sue Blackhawk.


I wouldn't really point the finger at the holster itself. A LOT of people use Serpa holsters... so it doesn't surprise me you hear more about AD and ND's from them. It was his bad training habits.... going from a holster with a thumb button... to a 1911 with the safety right where said thumb button on the previous holster was.... common sense would tell you this is generally a bad idea. Thankfully Tex is ok.

I see this all day long... people buying a hand gun for self defense... when I take it out of the display case to show it to them.... they barely know how to handle or hold one correctly.. I stress the importance to seek out training while they are filling out the paperwork... but it normally falls to deaf ears.
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Old July 5, 2011, 03:03 PM   #91
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It's not Serpa hate. The Serpa is the only holster identified by name in several ND's resulting in injury, and banned by name from several training schools.

IN LE, we call that "A CLUE" that there may be a problem with it.
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Old July 5, 2011, 03:46 PM   #92
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so he basically admitted that it was his mistake

that's much more than what most people would do

it happened because he was planning on putting his finger on the trigger when it came out of the holster, switching the safety off on the way up, then pulling the trigger

instead of pulling it, raising it, safe off, trigger pulled

i've used a Serpa holster fairly extensively, it doesn't put your finger inside the trigger guard
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Old July 5, 2011, 03:48 PM   #93
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I've used a Serpa when hunting and wanted retention. As I previously stated never thought it was good for competition, I don't want a complicated draw. You miss the release you get a Atomic Wedgie.

For carry my preference is IWB Milt Sparks Heritage.

Any time you move from KISS with equipment there is risk involved.
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Old July 5, 2011, 04:38 PM   #94
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LOL, ok... I'll keep an eye on my dangerous Serpa then. Luckily I have a gun close by in case it tries to hurt me.
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Old July 5, 2011, 05:03 PM   #95
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This is gonna hurt...AND leave a mark.

I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings but it will and I am sorry.
That negligent discharge is not attributable to the holster. It wouldn't matter if that "shooter" was carrying in leather, plastic or stainless steel. Some shooters should never be truated to carry 1911s or any Glocks because they haven't learned gun carry safety rules.

1) The guy was trying too hard to be too fast. Refer to a quote mentioned by a Wyatt Earp...((Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.)

2) Keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are "on target" Why is the word "off" so hard to understand.

3) Don't make videos about stuff like this. A simple one paragraph explaining what happened and ending with the disclaimer, "I AM A Dumbass!" will suffice.
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Old July 5, 2011, 08:14 PM   #96
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It's not Serpa hate. The Serpa is the only holster identified by name in several ND's resulting in injury, and banned by name from several training schools.

IN LE, we call that "A CLUE" that there may be a problem with it.
I hope im not the victim of a crime where you are and LE, the case would never get closed...

A true LE, would also consider the possibility that it's banned because there are too many dumb as&*$ who think they are John Rambo and don't know how to operate their equipment and cause the ND's. And the people training the class, rather than fix the problem (the shooter), they just remove the training opportunity.

Not saying it's not right, because safety of everyone involved is paramount, but if they are that unsafe, refund their money and tell them to go somewhere else. If I pay for a class, I will be using the equipment I want and am comfortable with. I wouldn't let any classroom commando tell me what equipment I can and can't use. A simple one on one evaluation of each student and their "safe" factor with their chosen equipment prior to class beginning would tell them who is safe and who is not. It would let them determine if it was the "equipment" that made them unsafe or the individuals lack of safety rules...
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Old July 5, 2011, 08:52 PM   #97
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SERPA holsters are not, by themselves, unsafe.

SERPA holsters do, in fact, place the shooter's finger above the trigger guard, indexed along the frame. When used properly.


As you can see in the pic, the actual retention "hook" retains the gun by holding against the trigger guard. That would be the little tab you see to the left.

As you can also see, the retention release tab actuated by the trigger finger, is indeed located above the trigger guard. When depressed by a flat trigger finger at the beginning of a draw, the trigger finger stays indexed along the frame just like it's supposed to. Until you move your finger.

Those who say that this was caused by a poor holster design are either ignorant of the proper operation/design of the holster, or are simply against the brand name because of some other type of bias. It is not an unsafe design, it has simply been used improperly by a larger number of people than other holsters.

EDIT: Pretty much every different breed of holster requires a slightly different muscle memory set. I'm sure we can all agree on this. Just because something is different, doesn't mean it's bad.

When one does not use equipment properly, bad things may happen.

I used SERPA holsters all over Alaska in all types of terrain, rocky, sandy, wet, salty, snowy, icy, muddy, gritty, etc... Never one issue. Had the gun/holster on me wherever I went. Never failed to draw during bear encounters, and always worked properly.

Glad the guy is okay.
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Old July 6, 2011, 12:20 AM   #98
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I have a Serpa for my Commander. Feels great and very safe about it. The index finger release readies the pistol while the thumb safety is still engaged. It takes two separate motions to ready the pistol. I'm good with mine, and will continue to carry it. Carrying something without a manual safety may be something different (like the M&P40).
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Old July 6, 2011, 02:06 AM   #99
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IN LE, we call that "A CLUE" that there may be a problem with it.
There is no problem with it. The only problem with a gun firing when its not supposed to is the idiot with the booger hook on the trigger.
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Old July 6, 2011, 04:38 PM   #100
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the booger hook on the trigger
That is going to happen to the best of them once every so often. To less than the best, even more so. A stiff trigger is one more safety buffer.
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