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Old July 14, 2011, 11:18 PM   #26
TylerD45ACP
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Its amazing how far people can shoot pistols. If you practice it can be done and well. Long range pistol shots are cool especially 230gr.'s because the are lobbing.
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Old July 15, 2011, 07:48 AM   #27
AK103K
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Run. Its no longer a self defense situation.
While I agree with the run part (although we may not necessarily agree on the direction), I dont agree with the self defense part.

Self defense is self defense, if someone is putting your life at risk, distance has nothing to do with it.

Practicing and knowing you can make solid hits at those distances only increases your chances. For those that cry about the legal standpoint, being able to show you do make good hits in practice at those ranges, shows it wasnt a reckless or desperate act.
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Old July 15, 2011, 01:16 PM   #28
TylerD45ACP
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I agree, if someone is shooting at me in my little scenario like that I would return fire. I want to increase my pistol distance shooting ability. I dont think I have shot much beyond 50yds with a pistol. Maybe Ill try some long range shots with my pistol next time Im out.
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Old July 15, 2011, 01:39 PM   #29
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Shooting at long range with a pistol can be fun, but don't think it is self defense training. 86% of police involved shootings take place at 7 yards, 50% at 5 feet.
If you feel you have mastered this, then go have fun shooting long range.

The issue with long range shooting is "Is it a threat?" If the shooter has a long gun, yes, it is, or could be. If he is shooting but missing by a great margin, take cover and call 9-1-1.

And remember, if you advance toward the shooter (as implied here), YOU may be seen as the agressor. At the least you will have a harder case to prove in court.
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Old July 15, 2011, 04:42 PM   #30
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Long range pistol shooting is a self-defense skill. If you can hit the bad guy, what guarantee do you have that he won't hit you? Sure, I would find cover and call 911, but I have as much faith in the cavalry saving me as I do in the tooth fairy.
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Old July 15, 2011, 05:32 PM   #31
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The issue with long range shooting is "Is it a threat?" If the shooter has a long gun, yes, it is, or could be. If he is shooting but missing by a great margin, take cover and call 9-1-1.
A boy down the road from me was shot at 200 yards across open fields while he was having a smoke out in the yard. Personal argument gone bad. Having the need of long range skills isnt really that far fetched.

If you can be hit, its a threat, even if it seems that rounds are going all over the place. Even a blind squirrel gets lucky once in awhile too.

As far as 911, we just got it a little while back. Unless a Trooper is right around here, response time is still about half an hour or so. Sometimes, you just have to cowboy up and do things yourself until the cavalry arrives.

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And remember, if you advance toward the shooter (as implied here), YOU may be seen as the agressor. At the least you will have a harder case to prove in court.
I understand the thoughts here, but then again, I dont. The way some will have you think, you really cant protect yourself, and you need to carry a lawyer around with you and get approval to return fire (wait, that sounds a lot like US military policy for the last 40 years ). Perhaps priorities need to be addressed.

Court is the aftermath. You have to live to get there.
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Old July 15, 2011, 09:09 PM   #32
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Doesn't hickok45 bang the gong @ 230 yds all the time on the regular with every Glock in the Glockbook?
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Old July 16, 2011, 05:22 AM   #33
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...and you need to carry a lawyer around with you
Who makes a comfortable holster for carrying a lawyer?



Quote:
Court is the aftermath. You have to live to get there.
Agreed!
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Old July 16, 2011, 09:43 AM   #34
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Why does each time "shooting at extended ranges" bring out the "can't do that, its no longer self defense" crowd.

Not everything is about self defense. Some of us like to shoot for "fun".

Shooting long range is "fun". But it certainly wont hurt your abilities with a "self defense" pistol.

Years ago, our club started shooting Pistol Metallic Silhouette. 50, 100, 150, and 200 yards. I was still working as a cop at the time. In stead of buying some fancy long range pistol, I shoot the matches with my 4 in Model 28 Duty revolver. Granted I didn't do as well as those who took it seriously, plus my 150 grn SWCs wouldn't knock over those rams at 200 when I hit them. But the benefit was what it did to my shooting at normal pistol ranges. Long ranges forced you to concentrate on your fundamentals, that carried forward to my training for my job. Really increased my qualification scores.

I'm not in the LE or Military game any more, nor am I dead, I still like to shoot, I shoot for fun, shooting long distance with a 642 is fun. Will I ever need to shoot 100 + yards in SD? No of course not but that doesn't mean there isn't targets or gongs that need shot.

But it happens all the time, someone mentions shooting long range with a pistol and the topic always comes to "that's not justified for self defense"

SO WHAT.
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Old July 16, 2011, 11:50 AM   #35
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I look at it as a useful skill to have.

No, I will 'probably' never use it in a fight. Probably, I won't ever have a fight to use any of my skills in.

But, if I ever needed to shoot at longer ranges, I very seldom carry a rifle in an AIWB holster, whereas I usually always have a service-sized handgun.
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Old July 16, 2011, 12:35 PM   #36
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I like shooting long distances. It is fun and helps with my short distance shooting. I don't ever see myself using my long distance skills in a self defense scenario but I still like to push my pistol out there. My grandpa would laugh when someone told him a pistol could shoot somewhat accurately at 80-100 yards. My father and I set a 75 yard gong up on his range. We both hit it with our pistols and he was astonished. Then he tried and also hit it. Now its mostly what he shoots at. That goes to show that an old dog can learn new tricks.

I wouldn't want to take the chance of injuring an innocent bystander with a less than 100% sure shot at 80-100 yards. This is why I would probably run or take cover and call 911. If the aggressor pursued then I would adjust my tactics. I feel its just too much risk poppin caps at 100 yards without controlled range. Then again, who knows. I may have to one day. Its easy for me to say it now but when put in the situation it will be a harder decision.
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Old July 16, 2011, 06:52 PM   #37
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Court is the aftermath. You have to live to get there.
Yep better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Somebody ought to make that their sig line

Marksmanship with a hangun iis a good skill to have. It's also IMHO a fun skill to aquire but I'm a trigger whore.
Liketyhood and Legal ramifications aside if somebody is a threat and 100 yards away and I'm hung out in the open it's nice to know that one of my options is to draw while going prone and shooting them
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Old July 17, 2011, 05:08 PM   #38
TylerD45ACP
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@Mavraver exactly what I thought about 100yds and getting shot at. Draw as I am going prone, get up a good prone firing position. Then start to lob some lead at the threat. Defintley would have to watch your background heavily, however if Im getting shot at I will shoot back.
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Old July 17, 2011, 05:36 PM   #39
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Most folks have limited range time and/or ammo to practice for self defense with a handgun. I think most of that time should be spent mastering the documented threat potential within 7 yards. Extending that to 15 yards doubles the distance, and covers well over 99% of all self defense shootings that actually have happened.

Spending time/ammo training at 100 yards for self defense is far, far beyond the envelope of reported events. Could it happen? Yes. How likely is it, compared to 1-2-3 or more outlaws at 7 yards? Way to the right of the decimal point.
Is it fun? Oh yeah.
Is it a realistic scenario? We can all imagine some scenario where it could happen - but we should worry about the real, not the imaginary threats.

As to defending yourself in court after such a shooting, I shudder to think what the prosicutor will bring out to show you were not at risk. How do you know the shooter was shooting at you, and not at some threat/target/game annimal between you that you could not see? Why did you not move to cover? How did you identify this person as the shooter? Could it have been some other person, not seen by you?
Now, it is possible that you will be out in level grasslands or desert, and the shooter will stand up so you can clearly see him/her shooting at you. But is it probable?
Not nearly as probable as the 7 yard threats.

As I said before, if you do it for fun, that's great.
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Old July 17, 2011, 08:25 PM   #40
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I think too many people suffer from Acute Ayoob Syndrome.

Like AK103K said:
You have to live to get to the court room.
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Old July 18, 2011, 01:38 PM   #41
TylerD45ACP
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Yea Sleuth, the scenario I created about the 100yd shootout was more for kicks than anything. I know it is a very impractical range for a shootout to occur and thats why I was talking about it. Could it happen? Yes, and you could be forced to defend yourself. However, I agree about shooting at closer ranges and pratice at the 21-30ft. range often. Yes, that is where most SD shoots will take place.
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