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Old June 30, 2011, 08:59 PM   #1
shovel99
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Legal to transport guns given by VA father to FL (son)?

Hi Guys,

A good friend's father is going to gift his collection to my friend Jack. Is it legal for his father to give the guns to him in VA... and Jack to drive home to FL with them in his possession? Peaceable carry? I presume they should draw up a bill of sale for each at $1, sign and date.

Or do they have to engage an FFL in VA and have them shipped to FFL in FL, at considerable expense?

As a GA resident, I have either used FFL to receive out of state acquisitions or a face to face exchange from GA residents.

Thanks in advance for your help.

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Old June 30, 2011, 09:07 PM   #2
357 Python
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I'm not a lawyer so I may not be completely accurate. That being said I believe they have to send them to a Florida FFL to do the transfer. Some FFLs will only accept shipments from other FFLs so check with the Florida FFL to see how they want to handle it. I also believe the giver could drive them to the Florida FFL and do the transfer there.
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Old June 30, 2011, 09:12 PM   #3
MLeake
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+1 That is exactly my understanding of the scenario.
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Old June 30, 2011, 09:14 PM   #4
shootniron
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No transfer through a FFL dealer is required to give a gun to someone unless one of the parties wants it and is willing to pay the fee. If the father takes the guns to Fl, he can just give them to the son.

Last edited by shootniron; June 30, 2011 at 09:21 PM.
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Old June 30, 2011, 09:19 PM   #5
GoOfY-FoOt
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If they are ALL long guns, Florida allows the transfer FTF, thanks to the new law that was just passed. I'm not sure about VA law, but if it allows, then the trek down won't be an issue.
If the father brought them here, no worries, not sure about the son going up to get them. In retrospect, the shipping and transfer would probably be cheaper than the fuel and the living expenses for the duration of the trip.

How many guns are involved?
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Old June 30, 2011, 09:57 PM   #6
Doyle
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Quote:
Florida allows the transfer FTF, thanks to the new law that was just passed.
No, the new FL law legalizes the purchase of a FL resident at an out-of-state dealer. Federal law still controls this particular case. You have a transfer from a VA resident to a FL resident. I don't know of any exception to the law that would eliminate the requirement than out-of-state transfers go through an FFL.

Of course if it were me, I think I'd just happen to go up to VA and get pleasantly surprised when I opened the trunk in FL and discovered all those nice guns in there.
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Old June 30, 2011, 10:16 PM   #7
GoOfY-FoOt
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Doyle is correct...

Florida law states in Ch. 2011-145 regarding State Statute 790.065 Sale and delivery of firearms Section (4)(c) This subsection does not apply to the purchase, trade, or transfer of a
rifle or shotgun by a resident of this state when the resident makes such
purchase, trade, or transfer from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer in another state.


SO, just do the transfer at a FFL in VA (if OK by VA law and if they are long guns) and bring them home.
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Old June 30, 2011, 10:37 PM   #8
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True; I assumed handguns in the mix, but I guess the OP never specified.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:00 PM   #9
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Forgive my stupidity, but I bought a pistol, a shotgun and a rifle in California many years ago. I then carried them with me in the trunk of my car as I moved to Florida, then later to South Carolina, then to Georgia, then to Kansas, then to Oklahoma (just stayed a few weeks in Oklahoma), left them with my wife in Oklahoma while I took a 13 month vacation to Vietnam, then picked her (and my guns up in Oklahoma), drove to California, then drove back to South Carolina for a 2 year hitch, then back to Kansas where I now reside.

Should I have involved FFls for all of these moves? Geez, I feel like a felon. So now I will be required to surrender all of my guns.

The guns belong to the son. He takes them from storage, or whatever in Virginia and transports them to his home in Florida. Is some kind of documentation (like ownership registration) of the guns required?

I am not a lawyer. I must be a simple minded felon and am darned glad I never got caught during those thousands of miles of illegal transports that traversed 15 or so states on multiple occasions. I am sure glad that Big Brother was not watching, and I think I even got a traffic stop or two with no bust. I even carried them onto a few military basis.

Big House here I come.

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Old June 30, 2011, 11:09 PM   #10
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Eagle Eye, your guns remained in your possession when you moved. Not the same. Not sure if you are joking, or if you really don't get it, so I'll go with worst case...

If you transfer ownership of a handgun, to somebody who does not live in your current state of residence, Federal law requires an FFL transfer in the state of residence of the new owner.

Now, you can loan a handgun to a friend or relative who is in another state, without involving an FFL, under limited circumstances. You'd have to look up the US code on that one, but I believe "sporting purposes" is one exception allowed.

But if they are receiving it, as owners, from an owner in another state, they have to have it transferred via an in-state FFL.

Doesn't matter if sale or gift, it's an interstate transfer of ownership, and it's covered under Federal - not necessarily state - law.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:16 PM   #11
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Eagle Eye, on another note, I believe all this crap (which is frankly what I believe it is, even though I follow the law and suggest you do, too) stemmed from the Gun Control Act of 1968. Depending on when you went to Viet Nam, the moves you mentioned might have been before the fact anyway.

Now, if you moved back to SC, and that became your residence, you could give or sell a handgun to an SC resident without the Federal requirement for an FFL transfer. However, you'd need an FFL in KS to then sell or give a handgun to somebody back in KS (assuming KS was no longer your legal state of residence).

Basically, your guns are considered to be in your state of residence, wherever that is at a given point in time, for purposes of transfer.

As far as shipping, face to face, etc.... My only experience with this, so far, was when I tried to give a gun to a friend. His local FFL would not accept the gun for transfer from me, even though I had the original box and receipt. He would only accept it from an FFL in my state. Some FFLs will accept a gun for transfer from a private owner, but there are definitely some out there who will not.

If you want to find some friendly FFL's in any given zip code, GunBroker.com has a listing search function.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:21 PM   #12
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Correct. Since Eagle Eye was not transferring possession, his interstate moves were moot from the standpoint of federal law.

It is perfectly legal for a person to move from one state to another and take all his firearms with him. Transferring ownership (whether via gift, purchase or trade) between two persons who do not reside in the same state is a different story. That requires the assistance of an FFL.

The only exception I'm aware of is that if a person dies they can leave their firearms to a resident of another state in their will and that transfer doesn't require an FFL.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:23 PM   #13
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shootniron, your advice could net somebody a fine and/or felony conviction. Be careful giving out advice without checking, first. Do a search on interstate transactions, or straw purchases, first, as a bare minimum.

In theory, nobody would ever know. In worst case, though, either the gun gets stolen and used in a crime, or the gun is used by the new owner in an SD scenario. Numbers get run... "Sir, how did you get to own this gun in Florida? It was purchased/registered in..." At that point, you could draw Federal attention that you don't want, and it becomes a dice roll.

Eagle Eye, another thing going back to your post: there are exceptions for PCS military moves. For instance, while a legal resident of Florida, but PCS stationed in Washington, I could buy guns in either state. Some states, such as NC, require purchase permits for handguns. In order to obtain a purchase permit while I was at Fort Bragg, I could have gone to the base Provost Marshal, and had him give me a form verifying that I was stationed in NC. I'd have then taken that to the local Sheriff's Dept, obtained a purchase permit, and could have bought from a local FFL.

OTOH, in Washington I just had to show the FFL a copy of my orders.

Just realize, you will always have Federal law to deal with, and then some states may have additional rules.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:34 PM   #14
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MLeake:

Actually my scenario was somewhat skewed. I was given the rifle by my father in about 1958 in Kansas. I purchased the shotgun in 1964 in Kansas. And I purchased the pistol in 1966 or 1967 in California.

As an active member of the Marines, I maintained my legal residence in Kansas throughout the period.

My vacation in Vietnam was from early 1968 (TET Offense...Khe Sanh -- great vacation spot) with later visits to other nice sunny, southern paradises in later 1968 and into 1969. My east and westbound trips happened between May 1969 through May 1972. I actually went coast to coast twice in each direction (that is 4 one way trips). I had many brief assignments along the way, so yes, it appears that I am really a felon and should indeed check myself into the Big House. I know that ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. But I think I must have broken it 20 or 30 times. I hope there is a statuate of limitations, or the Big Brother commandos may come break down my door at any moment....sarcasm here.

I cannot recommend breaking any law either, but I think we as a society have gone crazy. I can't help but wonder if some sort of FFL lobby effort may have supported such nonsense (I don't dare use the "C word" here, for this is a family forum).....more jest, I assure you

I still think if I was the OP, and I was going to VA for a visit, I would bring my guns back to me and keep my mouth shut as to the ownership trail unless there is indeed some formal registration that has been done and needs to be changed. After all, he is not dealing with a stranger who may have a checkered past......but oh, I just broke my promise and recommended breaking the law! :barf:

I am sure glad we have all these emoticons to show my humor.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:41 PM   #15
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Eagle Eye, there are a lot of us who don't particularly agree with all the laws we have in effect. Emoticons and joking aside, the better way to go is to:

Stay in contact with your representative and senators.

Write letters to the editor.

Support SAF, NRA-ILA, you name it.

Humor has its place, but it's better to change offensive laws than make jokes about them, or ignore them.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:51 PM   #16
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Humor aside -- it sounds to me like the OP can legally carry his own guns from VA to FL. Why does he need to tell the whole story to anyone? I just don't get it. Is it just to be an upstanding and honest citizen and sleep at night. From reading the posts, I don't understand why he needs to ship them to an FFL.

Give me the facts. I and the OP are listening.

If he already owned the guns, could he transport them in his car? And why does the date of ownership matter? Again, I really don't get it. I might be educated in some areas, but I am ignorant of the laws on this subject. Please enlighten me.

Is he only going to get in trouble if he happens to be found carrying the guns and he blurts out "my father just gave these to me the other day" instead of just saying "I own these guns and am taking them home."

Or is this a moral issue?

Again. Enlighten me please.
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Old July 1, 2011, 12:00 AM   #17
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JohnKSa:

I just backed up and read your post. It sneaked in when I was between screens and before I made my later posts.

Thank you.

I still wonder since this is between the OP's father and himself, who would know the difference unless there is an ownership record or registration showing his father as the owner? Is this because of the later changes in law (after my ordeal) whereby guns were perhaps registered by serial numbers to purchasers? I don't know.....just asking. If so, might the availability of such a record depend on when his father purchased or otherwise acquired the guns?

If no record exists, then this still sounds more like an issue of morality or ethics, and our lawmakers are not exactly stellar examples that induce my following. If no record exists, I think I would just now "own the guns" and pack them for the road home.
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Old July 1, 2011, 12:02 AM   #18
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The Feds know who sold the guns; the original dealers probably have the paperwork on those guns. Should they turn up at a crime scene, the Feds will ask who those guns were sold to.
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Old July 1, 2011, 12:10 AM   #19
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MLeake:

Does this Fed knowledge depend on the dates of acquisition? For example, does a federal record exist for the rifle that my Dad gave me in the 1950s? I was only about 12 years old at the time. Same question for my shotgun. I purchased it at Sears when I was about 18. I don't recall any registration at that time -- about 1964. I do recall registration of my pistol in California, as well as a wait period for I presume my background check.

I suppose it is safe to presume that at least some of the guns to be given to the OP were either registered to his father or are of such recent vintage to be registered to someone. Therefore the paper trail needs to be made accurate.

On a related matter, I recently sold a revolver face to face to another Kansas resident. I merely executed a bill of sale, checked IDs and made copies for each of us. May I presume I am safe from incarceration? Hope so and think so, but I will appreciate your thoughts.
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Old July 1, 2011, 12:17 AM   #20
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MLeake

You are right about this and my advice was bad and I apologize for this mistake as I was thinking this didn't apply to long guns. So much for what I know.

I have only ever been given a few guns and they were from local relatives so this was not an issue.
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Old July 1, 2011, 12:23 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Eye
Does this Fed knowledge depend on the dates of acquisition?
What difference does Fed knowledge make? The question was whether or not it's legal for the father who lives in Virginia to just hand over the guns to his son who live in Florida. The answer is ... no, it is not legal, pursuant to Federal laws.

I doubt very much anyone on this forum thinks these are good laws, but they ARE the laws. Doing the transfer without going through an FFL in Florida is not legal, whether or not any "authorities" ever find out about it.
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Old July 1, 2011, 01:17 AM   #22
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shootniron, the only reason I know about all this is from my military transfers, and a couple sales I had questions about.

I asked some local LEO friends, in one instance, and was given very bad advice... the ATF guy never got back to us (that was one of my main aggravations - I was trying to follow the rules; guess a consultation with a lawyer might not have been a bad idea).

Anyway, luckily for me there was a thread about interstate transfer requirements on TFL at about that time, and it was pointed out to me by Fiddletown and a few other resident lawyers that I had been given incorrect advice, and needed to involve an FFL.

Would anything have happened? Probably not. Could it have? Yes... and my job requires a security clearance, so arrests and investigations are NOT something I desire.

If you play the odds, nothing could ever come of it. However, in the unlikely case of a problem... Federal felony conviction; fine; loss of firearm privileges; loss of clearances; loss of employability. Or, I could pay $25 for an FFL transfer and never worry about it.

See what I mean?
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Old July 1, 2011, 08:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shovel99
A good friend's father is going to gift his collection to my friend Jack. Is it legal for his father to give the guns to him in VA... and Jack to drive home to FL with them in his possession? Peaceable carry? I presume they should draw up a bill of sale for each at $1, sign and date.
This is the part that caught my eye. If the collection is a gift, it's a gift. If it's a sale, it's a sale. If there's a bill of sale, even for $1, it's a sale and not a gift. I mention this because my understanding is that if the father sells 10 or more firearms in a year, he's "in the business" of dealing in firearms. That would mean (assuming that the father doesn't have an FFL) is dealing without a license. Problem! Please understand that I have not thoroughly researched this issue, so take my comments with that in mind.
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Old July 1, 2011, 08:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
If the collection is a gift, it's a gift. If it's a sale, it's a sale.
In this case, gift or sale doesn't matter. It's still an ownership change.

Quote:
my understanding is that if the father sells 10 or more firearms in a year, he's "in the business" of dealing in firearms.
Nope. There is no hard number that determines whether or not it's a business.
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Old July 1, 2011, 09:28 AM   #25
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And that is why I add a disclaimer. Thanks, Doyle. I'll do some more research on this.

I know it's still an ownership change, but I'd still be leery of making out a bill of sale when it's a gift. It my not matter for FFL purposes, but I think it wise, generally, to be clear as to what the transaction was.
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