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Old June 30, 2011, 02:47 PM   #1
AirborneMosinFan
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Bayonette legal for home defense?

This is hypothetical, I'd use my shotgun in case of a break in. But say one has a bayonet fixed to there rifle and confronted an attacker stabbing him in the stand off. Lets say the perp had a knife and you wanted to even it up. Would you be right in your actions? In addition like many my bayonet is an old triangle shape blade with a flat tip that is banned by the geneva convention would I still be ok?
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Old June 30, 2011, 02:57 PM   #2
Carry_24/7
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"Think like a juror", cause in the end their opinion may be all that matters. In my home, anything could become a hasty weapon if need be. But, I would only pre-designate a weapon that could not easily be misinterpreted as "only a psycho would have this." No crazy engravings, no fancy knives; simple only.

That's my personal opinion and practice only.
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:09 PM   #3
C Philip
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Lets say the perp had a knife and you wanted to even it up.
Why would you want to do that? Lethal force is lethal force. There's no need to use a blade to defend against a knife wielding attacker when you have a firearm. You want all the advantages you can get. Fighting on "even ground" increases your odds of getting hurt or killed.

If the case is clear cut, and you are obviously in the right, then having a bayonet isn't likely to matter. However, if details of the self defense shooting/stabbing are sketchy, then think how having an "evil banned knife" (that's how it will be spun in court) will look to the jury.

Edit:
Just saw in the tags you mentioned a Mosin Nagant. I would not recommend this rifle for home defense. Low capacity, bolt action, large muzzle flash, deafening noise if fired indoors without ear protection, too big (especially the full length model, and that's without the bayonet extended). You mentioned in another thread you have a "tactical" 12ga. That would be a much better choice.

Last edited by C Philip; June 30, 2011 at 03:18 PM.
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:09 PM   #4
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Lets say the perp had a knife and you wanted to even it up.
Absolute worst logic you could ever think of. Never try to match force when your life is on the line. Always go in with the best you've got.
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:31 PM   #5
Wildalaska
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Why would one use a bayonet in a lethal force scenario when one has a gun?

WildthisisajokethreadrightAlaska ™©2002-2011
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:33 PM   #6
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+1

Leave even for the ring. Being a fixed blade/bayonet aficionado myself (PC term for "I like sharp shiny objects in addition to things that go boom"), I would go to a bladed weapon in a defensive situation if I had absolutely nothing left.

Thing about a knife fight is that you WILL get cut, in all likelihood by your own blade, and don't discount the fact that your shiny weapon can easily get taken away from you.

Throw the toaster at the perp if your out of ammo, but I highly recommend against matching weaponry to even the odds, then they end up in his favor
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:44 PM   #7
Bartholomew Roberts
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This is hypothetical, I'd use my shotgun in case of a break in. But say one has a bayonet fixed to there rifle and confronted an attacker stabbing him in the stand off. Lets say the perp had a knife and you wanted to even it up. Would you be right in your actions?
A bayonet is lethal force just like a knife or a firearm. If you are legally justified in using lethal force, then a bayonet is as good as a firearm legally speaking. Now, might the fact that you used a bayonet be used to suggest you were not justified in your use of lethal force? I suppose that could happen in some scenarios. Without knowing the specific self-defense laws of your state, I couldn't really say.

Quote:
In addition like many my bayonet is an old triangle shape blade with a flat tip that is banned by the geneva convention would I still be ok?
I think you are trying to refer to the Hague Convention. The Geneva Conventions of 1949 deal with care for the wounded, sick, non-combatants, and prisoners of war.

Nowhere do the Hague Conventions ban 3-sided bayonets. They do ban weapons "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" in Article 23; but I've not found any legal opinion stating that such bayonets were illegal. I think this is more likely "gun store myth."
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:48 PM   #8
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Tactically, this is a less than smart move.

As others have said, use the gun - Never defend on an even playing field when it comes to lethal force encounters. You don't have to and the law doesn't require it.

Legally, it would depend upon the knife laws of the State you were in. You could win the fight. You could win the court case (criminal and/or civil) but still fall to using an unlawful weapon.
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:53 PM   #9
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The only unfair fight is the one you lose. If a criminal is in my house and threatens me with a knife he has violated my second rule of gunfighting. If you must get into a gun fight be sure and bring a gun. (Rule number 1 being try and avoid getting into a gunfight if at all possible)

I don't want an even fight with someone who has broken into my house I want to win the fight and live. An even fight means you have a 50% chance of losing. I don't like 50/50 odds when I can do better.
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Old June 30, 2011, 03:58 PM   #10
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It may be legal depending on the laws where you live but any distance you can keep between you and your attacker is a plus, the farther the better.

Using a knife on a living creature can have its own set of mental challenges, we butcher and smoke pigs every year and act to ensure no animal suffers one second longer than needed and a knife into living flesh has a certain mental challenge even if a bullets done 99% of the job.
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Old June 30, 2011, 04:00 PM   #11
AirborneMosinFan
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My question stems from a discussion at my company

The guys and I were sitting around waiting for pt formation and we got into the topic of chosen weapons.
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Old June 30, 2011, 04:00 PM   #12
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Military shotguns did at one time have bayonets when needed. If you want a bayonet get a sword bayonet like mine .It was common in our Civil War and could be operated like a bayonet .In those long muskets the combination made a fine pike. You could also use it as a short sword.
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Old June 30, 2011, 04:07 PM   #13
AirborneMosinFan
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As for my home defense weapon it is my shotgun with a newly fitted saddle for 6

The Mosin was tagged to inform them of the sort of bayonet. That's funny that you mentioned it was a gun store myth, that's were I heard it from.
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Old June 30, 2011, 04:37 PM   #14
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The section of the Hague convention cited by Bartholomew would, I believe, cover 3 sided bayonets (triangular blades) as items "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." Due to the shape of the blade, wounds would not be able to close easily.
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Old June 30, 2011, 04:41 PM   #15
Mike Irwin
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"Lets say the perp had a knife and you wanted to even it up."

"Even" is for suckers who only want a 50/50 chance of surviving an encounter.

The shotgun makes survival a lot more likely.

Use the damned thing for its intended purpose, not as the shaft for a spear.
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Old June 30, 2011, 06:33 PM   #16
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The only reason I could think of where somebody might do this would be if they were someplace like my uncle's house, where an old Arisaka rifle, with bayonet, is a wall decoration.... and they don't have an actual firearm handy when the BG breaks in.

In that case, the bayonet may be the way to go. I really can't think of any other scenario where it would come into play for home defense, let alone self-defense, without raising major bells and whistles.

By the way, if I were in that scenario at my uncle's house, I'd probably have grabbed the katana from the wall, and not the Arisaka. That would also be fun to explain; but I am more proficient with a sword than with a bayonet. (I know quite a few martial artists who have their cutting swords - as opposed to dull-edged swords like iai - in decorative mounts when not in use, so I could see this happening with some of them.)

Not sure what scenario the OP envisions, here.
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Old July 1, 2011, 03:33 AM   #17
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Exactly as MLeake said. The only excuse for using a bayonet is if its on a milsurp rifle and you HAVE NO AMMO IN THE RIFLE! Going hand to hand with an attacker is not a good choice, but if its the only one you have, any and everything near you is a valid weapon.

If the mounted bayonet on a milsurp display rifle is the handiest thing to grab, do it! Otherwise, no, its not a good idea.

Legally, using a knife/bayonet/sword to defend yourself is the same as using a gun. Deadly force. Beyond that, the specific tool used is a minor consideration, except for the image it can create to the jury.

If you have a loaded gun, and you bayonet your attacker, the DA is going to try hard to paint you as a psyco who wanted the "thrill" of stabbing someone. Not good for your defense.
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Old July 1, 2011, 03:39 AM   #18
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Remember that blade vs firearm is a lost cause....

Even Hollywood realized it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc



K.
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Old July 1, 2011, 03:52 AM   #19
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If the firearm and now infamous + historical bayonet are legal, the answer is definately yes you can use it. And it is very possible in that quick instant that it makes sense at the time. All bets are off in that life changing event and a gunfight has begun...maybe you shoot and then have a missfeed or only had a shot available. You probably wouldn't even make the decision - instinct would take over. What other choice would you have in such a close encounter? Run? try to ask the perp if you were cool now? do what you gotta do?

I would choose the latter
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Old July 1, 2011, 04:14 AM   #20
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just coming back after reading more posts

I also agree with mleake. it is probably not anyone's first choice, but it is plausible the bayonet could see action(I plan on googling it in a minute- I have no lifeLOL). A charging, ugly man with a rusty bayonet might do more damage than a good shot...just saying
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Old July 1, 2011, 05:12 AM   #21
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bayonet thwarts burglary

83yo man uses bayonet against burglarScott Casey | August 23, 2007 - 1:18PM

An 83-year-old man was allegedly forced to use a bayonet defend himself against a man who broke into his Tin Can Bay home last night.

A Police Media spokesman said about 10.20pm yesterday, a 53-year-old allegedly broke into the man's home on Tuna Way and attacked the elderly resident, who defended himself with a bayonet.

The spokesman said the alleged's burglar's hand was sliced in the incident, while the elderly man also sustained minor injuries, including cuts and abrasions.

Both were treated at the Gympie Hospital.

The alleged offender has been charged with burglary and serious assault. He will appear in Gympie Magistrates Court later today.
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Old July 1, 2011, 05:58 AM   #22
AirborneMosinFan
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I looked that up too stress fire, I think really may be banned

That's pretty cool about that old man getting the burglar
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Old July 1, 2011, 09:00 AM   #23
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Bayonets are fine just use them as they were intended. When your out of ammo for your rifle.
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Old July 1, 2011, 10:15 AM   #24
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As far as legality goes, so long as the bayonet itself is within the knife laws of your state I don't see how it would be illegal although you might look like a kook in court.

Tactically, you really need to understand the role of a bayonet. The whole point of a bayonet (no pun intended) is to give you a viable weapon when you've run out of ammunition or when the fighting is at such close quarters that your firearm is no longer practical (this usually means a manually operated gun).

The bayonet was concieved when firearms were by and large single-shot weapons and very slow to reload (muzzle loaders). If the enemy is close and you've already fired your shot, a blade is much more practical than a gun which takes a third of a minute to reload. Bayonets continued for much the same role up through the advent of repeating firearms because, while certainly better than a single-shot, a bolt-action rifle still isn't particualry practical at bad breath distance. With the advent of semi-automatic and fully-automatic weapons, bayonets became much less tactically relevant and pretty much used only as a last-ditch when out of ammo or as a general utility knife which also happens to be able to be attached to a rifle. From WWII on, it became rare to routinely see soldiers in the field with bayonets affixed.

Besides looking like a kook in court, a rifle or shotgun with a bayonet attached offers a couple of distinct tactical disadvantages for home defense. The bayonet, by its very nature, adds several inches to the OAL of the gun making it less manuverable in tight spaces. Also most firearms (Mosin-Nagants are one of the few exceptions) have their sights zeroed without the bayonet affixed. Any bayonet that comes into contact with the barrel is going to change the harmonics of the barrel and therefor the point of impact.

On the other hand, if you're out of ammo I suppose a bayonet can turn your gun from an expensive club into an expensive pike which is, I guess, somewhat more useful.

On a side note, I rather doubt that the triangular bayonet blade runs afoul of the Hauge convention as it was used on several military rifles including both the Mosin Nagant and certain SKS variants well into the 1950's and 1960's.
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Old July 4, 2011, 02:03 AM   #25
kilimanjaro
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The Hague Conventions regulate the militaries of the world, not civilians.

Don't bring a knife to a knife fight unless it's all you have.
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