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Old June 29, 2011, 01:40 PM   #26
C0untZer0
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I guess I was thinking along the same lines as Don. I'm not accusing anyone of anything... I'm just saying I get a bad feeling about these kinds of scenarios because it has a Bernerd Goetz feel to it.

People who seem eager to have the opportunity to employ a firearm. I can see how it'd be a great story to tell your grandkids.

I think it's possible for someone to have a slightly skewed view - to lump people into the bad guy category and to think that by pulling their pistol they are going to be coming to the rescue and that when the police arrive they are going to be congratulated for dispatching the scumbags, and they will be seen as heros. But it really might not go that way, especially if there was escalation on the part of the shooter or someone in his party. Might be facing a very expensive and prolonged legal battle to try to avoid a conviction and jail time. Not to mention the civil suits...
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:44 PM   #27
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To some members it seems rather easy to take a life from the comfort of their home or office banging on the key board.
When you are being run over or threatened with death or grave bodily injury it is very easy. Not to take a life but rather to end the threat. The alternative is the hard part. Being beaten definitely isn't fun and I'm sure being run over is pretty awful as well. Just as quickly as you jump away from the approaching vehicle, you will draw and fire when threaten with death. If you don't think you can do this, you might as well be victimized.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:51 PM   #28
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I think it's possible for someone to have a slightly skewed view - to lump people into the bad guy category and to think that by pulling their pistol they are going to be coming to the rescue and that when the police arrive they are going to be congratulated for dispatching the scumbags, and they will be seen as heros.
As easy as it was for you to presume to know our intent in defending ourselves?
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Old June 29, 2011, 02:08 PM   #29
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The proper use of a firearm could have influenced this situation in a number of ways. Had I been Tim, depending on the exact circumstances, I would have drawn as soon as it became apparent that the vehicle had adjusted its course to hit me. Depending on the speed of the vehicle, the driver would have had but a second to readjust his course before I fired. Where im from, attempting to run someone over is attempting to kill them. Your opinion may vary.

Had I been Chris or the co-worker, again dependent on the exact circumstances, I would have immediately retrieved Tim while telling the other to call the police. I would have retreated back toward the work truck/van, and drawn when the vehicle pulled back into the station.

I cannot see a way the second situation would have unfolded if the police had been called.
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Old June 29, 2011, 02:10 PM   #30
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Just as quickly as you jump away from the approaching vehicle, you will draw and fire when threaten with death. If you don't think you can do this, you might as well be victimized.
+1
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Old June 29, 2011, 05:04 PM   #31
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After the brush with the Cadillac, I'd be on the phone with the police, reporting a pedestrian downed by a vehicle followed by an armed assault. License plate, color, year, description of occupants, etc.

My bet is the cops would have shown up PDQ and the second act would never have followed.
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Old June 29, 2011, 06:14 PM   #32
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Well fist of all, If some yahooo clipped me with their car.. I would be on the phone with poilce and trying to give info on the car, tag and occupants.
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Old June 29, 2011, 07:02 PM   #33
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I'd be interested in reading the newpaper account. Do you have the name of the paper and date?
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Old June 29, 2011, 07:05 PM   #34
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At what point would they have been justified in showing the weapon, or even using it in defense? What if the attackers had first targeted their vehicles instead of splitting up to chase them?
When they were first approached by thugs with knives and baseball bats without waiting to see if they were going to target their vehicles first.
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Old June 29, 2011, 08:48 PM   #35
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I've yet to see a thread of this type where calling the police as soon as possible wasn't the best answer.

So I would have called the cops with the cars license number as soon as possible. I would then collect my stuff and find a safe place to wait.
After swearing out a complaint I would happily anticipate my chance to appear as a witness against the people who hit me with the car.
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Old June 29, 2011, 10:22 PM   #36
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If you feel threatened,especially from someone wielding a baseball bat which can SERIOUSLY injure or even KILL you,you have every right to pull out your handgun,rifle,knife,2x4, or chair etc and defend yourself,End of story!
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Old July 1, 2011, 04:17 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by C0untZer0
to lump people into the bad guy category and to think that by pulling their pistol they are going to be coming to the rescue and that when the police arrive they are going to be congratulated for dispatching the scumbags, and they will be seen as heros.
This is precisely what happened with my brother. He came to the rescue of a neighboring businessman, shot the thug through the leg with a .45ACP Black Talon (was trying to hit center mass), when the police arrived he was congratulated for trying to dispatch the scumbag and he was hailed a hero in the local media.

Righteous shootings are just that, righteous. Questionable shootings are usually accompanied by the shooter being evasive.
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Old July 1, 2011, 04:51 PM   #38
WANT A LCR 22LR
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What do the pressure wash guys have in mind when they return to the same business to wash again? Or near by businesses? The thugs are going to attack again given their willingness to return in the 1st incident.
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Old July 1, 2011, 05:19 PM   #39
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As I read the scenario,and if I found myself in the same situation...

Once the initial fist fight was over I would of insisted my work crew leave immediately cause I would of anticipated a return from the youtes.

We would leave job site, call and report info to police and take friend who was hit with car and those involved in fight to hospital for check..
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Old July 3, 2011, 08:50 PM   #40
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Not all of us are 23 years old, 6'3", 240 # and Navy SEAL trained.

Absent the details, many are jumping to conclusions.

Some of us are 50+, in less than perfect health, etc. Those details matter, often quite a bit...and your options may be dictated by those limitations.
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Old July 3, 2011, 09:28 PM   #41
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I would probably find a job where I don't get attacked by these sorts. For the situation at hand, escalating the fight was the wrong thing to do. De-escalate, as was stated. Or do what you have to do in order to protect yourself and your friends from a wanton attack when de-escalation fails.
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Old July 3, 2011, 10:10 PM   #42
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Don, having taken two lives in the line of duty, and wounded an escaping prisoner once: During the first incident, I would draw, seek cover and warn them to leave, and kill them if they approached. I would call the police either way. In the second instance, had the police not arrived yet, I would draw and kill them, beginning with those who were armed with anything that could be viewed as a deadly weapon.
I would suggest, rather than "kill them," I'd shoot until the threat abated, but otherwise, this would be my response. This is a scenario posited for discussion. To cast aspersions on the poster, well, whatever. As for my reaction - given the scenario presented? I'm astonished anyone's reaction would differ from Dresen2001's. My weapon is out and I'm prepared to fire.

Good gracious, someone aiming a car at me is not getting the benefit of the doubt. Gangs of armed thugs coming at me are not getting the benefit of the doubt.
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Old July 3, 2011, 10:51 PM   #43
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I would think there would not be sufficient time to retreive a weapon at the split second when you figure the car is trying to hit you.
After the impact when they exit their vehicle with the intent to cause harm, the weapon comes out and they are presented with two choices determined by the distance from me to them.
Whatever happens the next step is an immediate call to 911.
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Old July 3, 2011, 11:43 PM   #44
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about to read every response(I haver read some) - thank you for a very explanatory, interesting thread. 1st impression:

Quote:
Unfortunately, the three workers stayed to finish their job. About ten minutes later, an old van parked in front of the gas station. Two of the youths from earlier stepped out, accompanied by two thugs built like gorillas. They were carrying baseball bats and knives.
this is unacceptable in my point of view. the scene should have been vacated Immediately after the caddy slowrided away. no problems with cops being called - that is a choice these people needed to make on their own+it seems like a very prudent idea. Staying at the scene was not a good idea in the least. these people hit your friend/worker with a vehicle&laughed about it. I would've known it was an automatic they would return. By staying and not calling the police, things stayed at the assailants level - just as they wanted it. I am glad none of the workers were killed. It is probable(though speculation) some form of drug(s) and/or alcohol were present. The scene should've been vacated immediately. At the very least the cops should have been called while you waited, but my instinct would've gotten me out of there.
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Old July 3, 2011, 11:49 PM   #45
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southern guy

just read your edit - I am glad your buddy admitted it was stupid to stay. Only he can use that strong of a word. I wouldn't say that about him. Stuff happens!

I would've drawn in a heartbeat in this situation(going by exactly how it played out in southernguy's original post). they come back with their buddies after a MAJOR altercation/incident, they have weapons such as baseball bats and approach. Absolutely I would draw to defend myself and stand my ground. And this is another example of the fact that one does not have to draw every time they draw their weapon. The cops would have killed many perps having a bad day if that was true.

all the best
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Old July 3, 2011, 11:58 PM   #46
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tailgator

Quote:
(1) Control anger. Getting clipped by a car is no laughing matter, but getting into a shouting match and kicking someone's car is escalation, even if you feel it was emotionally justifiable. An armed person needs to seek to de-escalate confrontations. It is part of the discipline of carrying.
this is a very good point. I have made my side known, But there are two sides to every story. It would have helped to have seen the actual, first hit w/car with my own eyes. Basically, this is hard to explain but there was like a "college fight" after where everything stays between the people involved. is it possible he was lightly tapped and they got out in the not so sympathetic mood before it Escalated further? not sure, I'd still do the same later on but maybe southernguy can add more sometime? it can be really funny the varying ways one would respond @ 20, 30, 50 yrs of age as example...
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Old July 4, 2011, 03:29 AM   #47
youngunz4life
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GUYZ WAKE UP WE NEED TO TALK HERE

SORRY, I WAS HAVING WITHDRAWALS TFL STYLE
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Old July 5, 2011, 09:14 AM   #48
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Kinda not much left to add.
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Old July 5, 2011, 01:21 PM   #49
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Mistake #1 was escalating the situation.

Mistake #2 was not calling the police at the first reasonable opportunity.

Mistake #3 was staying there when there was a VERY high probability the assailants would return with reinforcements of some sort.

When you become legally justified in drawing and/or firing a weapon depends on the laws in your area but the short answer is you are morally justified when the choice has been removed by the attacker.

Quote:
To some members it seems rather easy to take a life from the comfort of their home or office banging on the key board.
Yes, it is very easy to make comments from behind a keyboard. I can only answer for myself but the more of a threat someone poses to myself or those I care about, the less value their life holds to me. I have never had to fire on another person and I sincerely hope I never have to but I have been in more than one situation where I had to choose whether or not to shoot. Thankfully, the individuals posing a threat didn't remove that choice and force my hand but their lives held little value to me at that point.
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Old July 6, 2011, 09:40 AM   #50
youngunz4life
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well said

SRH78

I don't look at it the same Exact way, but what you said pretty much makes a lot of sense to me.
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