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Old June 28, 2011, 08:15 PM   #1
Southern_guy
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Happened to a friend- WWYD?

A friend of mine works with a local company that does odd jobs performing maintenance and cleaning local businesses. Let's call him "Chris". Typically, they work after the store closing hours.

Recently, three of them were assigned to pressure-wash a gas station/liquor store and fix a chainlink fence on the site. At around 9 PM, Chris, his cousin "Tim", and another employee arrived and began to work. Approximately fifteen minutes into the job, a old Cadillac drove by, blaring rap music. When the car neared the store, it swerved off the road and began speeding towards Tim. They clipped him, sending the poor guy flying.

The occupants of the car began laughing their asses off. The doors opened, four "urban youth" hopped out, and they began yelling at Tim for denting their Cadillac. Understandably angry, Tim got back up and yelled back at them. He kicked the car, and the driver jumped him.

Chris kneed the driver in the ribs, knocking him off Tim. The other hoodrats piled in on Chris. Tim went in fists flying to help Chris, while their coworker used the pressure washer hose as a whip and hit the opponents with it.
The "urban youth" broke off from the fight and jumped in the Cadillac, speeding away.

Unfortunately, the three workers stayed to finish their job. About ten minutes later, an old van parked in front of the gas station. Two of the youths from earlier stepped out, accompanied by two thugs built like gorillas. They were carrying baseball bats and knives.

One of the thugs ran up to the work truck and Chris's car and began busting in the windows, lights, and panels with a baseball bat. The others began chasing the workers. Luckily, they were young and hadn't been badly injured in the earlier fight, and the thugs were rather out of shape.

When Chris, Tim, and the coworker got far enough away, they called the cops and went back to the store. Their vehicles had been trashed.
The boss gave them permission to carry a weapon with them in the truck(he's an old-fashioned sort) and now frequently calls his teams when they are on the job in rough neighborhoods.

How should the workers have reacted if they had a firearm in their possession when the incident occurred? At what point would they have been justified in showing the weapon, or even using it in defense? What if the attackers had first targeted their vehicles instead of splitting up to chase them?
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Old June 28, 2011, 08:19 PM   #2
shootniron
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Let us back-up a little.....why did they not call the cops when the first incident happened?

I would not shoot someone over trashing my car and if I could get away from their threat without shooting or presenting my weapon, that is what I would do.
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Old June 28, 2011, 08:25 PM   #3
kaylorinhi
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First a vehicle is a deadly weapon must places I have heard of or lived.

+1 for calling the cops at the first chance.
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Old June 28, 2011, 08:26 PM   #4
stolivar
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they were not just trashing the truck

they were also chasing them. if they had ball bats and came back. they meant business........



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Old June 28, 2011, 08:32 PM   #5
Southern_guy
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Quote:
Let us back-up a little.....why did they not call the cops when the first incident happened?

I would not shoot someone over trashing my car and if I could get away from their threat without shooting or presenting my weapon, that is what I would do.
I texted him that question. Waiting for reply.

EDIT: At the time, they apparently thought the first encounter was the end of it. In retrospect, he says they were really stupid to think that.

Last edited by Southern_guy; June 28, 2011 at 08:37 PM.
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Old June 28, 2011, 08:35 PM   #6
orionengnr
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Quote:
Let us back-up a little.....why did they not call the cops when the first incident happened?
Um...because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away?

Quote:
I would not shoot someone over trashing my car
If you actually read the post, you would have known that the car trashing was visit number two...

What would I have done? Assuming the facts given in the OP are true, I have been hit by a car and am now being threatened/assaulted and am outnumbered four to one. I would call my options pretty limited at that point, and my situation extremely dire.

Without saying exactly what I would have done, I'll leave it to your imagination.

Last edited by orionengnr; June 28, 2011 at 08:41 PM.
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Old June 28, 2011, 08:39 PM   #7
robmkivseries70
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I'd guess the,"This isn't really happening to me." syndrome. You know, like the river in Egypt.
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Old June 28, 2011, 09:23 PM   #8
shootniron
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Quote:
Um...because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away?
Um....what about after the first incident was over....????


Quote:
If you actually read the post,
If you had actually read the post, it was 4 on 3...not 4 on 1.

There is a very good chance that, with the events as described by the OP,if you had shot any of them....your arse would be on the way to jail. When this went to court, these "youths" would have been presented as just out having a good time and misjudged their distance when they hit you....as evidenced by the fact that you were able to get up and shout, kick the car and knee the driver. Also, there would have been no disparity of force as they would have only had you out numbered by one.

You do as you like, I personally do not care. But, my response if able, would have been to put distance between myself and the "youths".
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Old June 28, 2011, 09:40 PM   #9
C0untZer0
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I'm actually more interested in what you would have done.

Like WildAlaska says, my "hinky" meter goes way up concerning this post.

Last edited by C0untZer0; June 28, 2011 at 09:46 PM.
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Old June 28, 2011, 10:24 PM   #10
motorhead0922
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The first thing the thugs did is attempt to murder Tim with a car. When they all got out of the car, I would reasonably assume they intended to finish the job and had the means to do so. I would draw and give them one warning, then open fire if they advanced one step.
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Old June 28, 2011, 11:45 PM   #11
Southern_guy
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If you were asking what I would have done...

When the thugs starting chasing them with knives and bats, I would ideally drawn and yelled at them to halt. If they kept charging me with the weapons, I would have fired. Of course, that's what I would plan on doing. Lord knows life has a way of making plans go to hell in the real world.

By the way, what do you mean by "hinky?" Legally murky?
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:26 AM   #12
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OK so here is what I would have done - when I got hit by the car I would have immediately called the police. When the thugs got out of their car I would have held my hand up in a halt motion and retreated back to my coworkers while on the phone. I would have gone into the store or into a shop or something, and probably the other scenarios wouldn't have happened. I also would have informed the teens that I had called 911.

I'm not going to go down each possible hypothetical scenario after those initial actions.

Intentionally hitting someone with a car is assault with a motor vehicle in many states, in other states it gets lumped into assault with a deadly weapon, sometimes also called assault while driving a motor vehicle... depends on which state but its a serious offense, in PA it's a felony.

What makes my hinky meter go up on this post is that I get a Bernard Goetz feel from it... someone wanting to be a hero and employ their firearm and vanquish the badguys. Almost an eagerness to be in a situation where you have an opportunity to bring a firearm into play.

Well anyway - that's just me.
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:45 AM   #13
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I would have called the cops and reported a hit and run with an assault in progress. Then I would have retrieved my .45 becouse I dont go anywhere without it and told the brothas that Im fixin to shoot me some hood rats if yall dont stop beating my friend you just ran over and went from there.

People like that need a good ass whippin or shot anyway.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:09 AM   #14
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I would have pressure washed the perps.....
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Old June 29, 2011, 05:24 AM   #15
DRBoyle
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Sounds like a legal question rather than a tactical one.
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Old June 29, 2011, 06:43 AM   #16
flintshooter
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I agree with Eghad. A pressure washer can be a very effective weapon.
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Old June 29, 2011, 07:10 AM   #17
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When they come out with bats, the glock comes out, assuming they didn't get shot when they did an ADW with the car.
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Old June 29, 2011, 07:49 AM   #18
booker_t
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Back up..

I wouldn't have kicked their car to begin with, regardless of whether they clipped me or anything else. Kicking their car puts me in a bad position, for a multitude of reasons. This is when you get their tags and call the police.

After the initial fight, to not assume that they would return with reinforcements or greater firepower than they had been holding originally was real ignorance. This trio is fortunate it was only their cars that got smashed, as opposed to them getting lit up and left for dead. Not trying to be disparaging, but as a guy who has lived in major US cities for 30+ years, rarely do the aggressors not return to make clear they are the dominant pack.

Regarding when the firearm comes out, well this situation is so muddled, I'm going to leave that one alone. We could armchair-quarterback that one for weeks and never agree. I will say, that if multiple people are coming at me with knives and bats, I'm making a tactical retreat, preparing my firearm, and calling police.

Some might say that they wouldn't use a firearm to defend their car. In this case, I'm thinking you are justified to defend the property, as it is your place of business, at least for the moment. The gas station/liquor store, the cars on the property, your tools and any supplies or materials that may have significant value, etc. Generally firearms are used to defend life, not things, I get that, but I'm not the type to stand idle while being victimized by a group of individuals who have clearly indicated that they had premeditated criminal intent, and have already been physically violent and threatening additional violence. But that's a personal choice.
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Old June 29, 2011, 08:37 AM   #19
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(1) Control anger. Getting clipped by a car is no laughing matter, but getting into a shouting match and kicking someone's car is escalation, even if you feel it was emotionally justifiable. An armed person needs to seek to de-escalate confrontations. It is part of the discipline of carrying.

(2) Notify the police at the earliest opportunity after being assaulted the first time. If your relatives and friends felt they needed to end the first incident before making a call to 911, that is certainly understandable, but there is absolutely no reason not to report such a serious incident immediately upon its conclusion.

(3) If the police response was even marginally adequate, the second incident shouldn't have happened. If it was not, the employer should have been notified and the job site should have been made more secure before work continued. I employ a few people, and I feel responsible for them. Security and self-defense measures are in place. The safety of my employees takes precedence over any and all issues of finance and material possessions.

The use of a firearm is a last resort, but one that all free people have a right to employ when needed. Only someone who was there could say how big a threat was present during and immediately after the worker was hit by a car. But if a firearm was brought in to play when the thugs returned, it would be much harder to explain and defend in the absence of a 911 call than if law enforcement had been notified. The lack of involvement of law enforcement agencies is a big problem in the way the situation was presented by the OP.
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Old June 29, 2011, 10:34 AM   #20
Bamashooter
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Southern Guy... What countzero means by hinky is he thinks maybe your not being truthful. Some folks are like that.
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:16 PM   #21
Eagle0711
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When the bats and knives appreared, they would have been warned once to leave. If they did not leave, they would have been shot.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:00 PM   #22
Don P
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To some members it seems rather easy to take a life from the comfort of their home or office banging on the key board.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:00 PM   #23
Dresden2001
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Don, having taken two lives in the line of duty, and wounded an escaping prisoner once: During the first incident, I would draw, seek cover and warn them to leave, and kill them if they approached. I would call the police either way. In the second instance, had the police not arrived yet, I would draw and kill them, beginning with those who were armed with anything that could be viewed as a deadly weapon.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:25 PM   #24
Bamashooter
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Come on don.... These guys already ran your buddy over with a car. Then got out of the car with intent of causing more bodily harm. These idiots made the decision easy.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:33 PM   #25
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When the car turned and basically tried to play chicken with me I would have drawn my gun while getting out of the way, the latter being most important. When they stopped and bailed out they would have been met by Mr. gunpoint and I would have asked that police be called by my partners. If the thugs responded appropriately, stop and retreat, and if they weren't armed, I would simply make the best witness possible.

The second part likely wouldn't have happened due to LE presence however if it did, I would be forced to draw and in this case defend my vehicle. I know its not the wisest choice however having the advantage of gun vs ball bats allows me to save some money in copays.

My life is worth more way more than the copay, the bad guys live not so much. Attack a man with a bat who is armed with a gun and get what you deserve.
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