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Old June 25, 2011, 04:21 AM   #1
JustThisGuy
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"I'll never need a Gun."

To the guy who told me today that he'll never need a gun. Since he just never causes a problem to anybody so he'll never need one. I politely refer him to the article: http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14965429

Quote:
COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) - All eight suspects are in custody after a brutal attack in Five Points early Monday morning which left the teenage victim in critical condition, according to Columbia police. ...
The victim was beaten by a mob of eight thugs, 1-19 year old and seven others including a 14-year-old, 15-year-old, 16-year-old, all charged with strong-arm robbery of the victim's cell phone. Additionally, ...

Quote:
A 13-year-old and three other 16-year-olds were all charged with criminal conspiracy, according to Timmons.
...
Police Chief Randy Scott said the 18-year-old victim, later identified as Carter Strange, was jogging through a parking lot near the intersection of Blossom Street and Saluda Avenue just after midnight on Monday when the assault happened. "This teenager was minding his own business, trying to make his curfew when he was brutally attacked and robbed," said Scott.
...
Timmons said surveillance video taken in the area shows four of the suspects running towards Carter, though police only released video of the suspects walking on Harden Street. Investigators believe the suspects assaulted Carter and stole his cell phone before leaving him in the parking lot.
...
After the assault, Scott said Carter managed to make it a block down the road to Edisto Avenue, where a passerby found him two hours later and called 9-1-1. Carter was taken to a local hospital, where he is still in critical condition.
...
Carter's family told police the beating was so severe he required emergency surgery to remove a brain clot. He's also expected to need reconstructive surgery on his face. "He did nothing to them," said Vicki. "They didn't know him, they didn't know the kind of person he was, they don't know the kind of man he's grown up to be and they don't know the lives he's touched. But they thought he was so less of a person, they thought this would be okay."
"Lack of evidence of a risk is not the same thing as a lack of risk." Thomas L, Norman, CPP/PSP/CSC "Risk Analysis and Security Countermeasure Selection" - Butterworth/Heinenmann 2009

"I'll never need a gun." Indeed!
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:21 AM   #2
irish52084
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"Never say never" as they say.

My father, who got me into firearms and CC, is terrible about carrying a gun, and this sounds a bit like his attitude at times. He only carries in special circumstances or while traveling. It's strange, because I carry almost all of the time and I think he's finally getting over that fact. He also has a bad habit of carrying condition 3 in a day planner holster. I can't think of a worse way to carry, other than not to. I guess old habits and stubbornness are hard to break.
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:31 AM   #3
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Sounds like another case of the son thinking he knows better than his father.
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:32 AM   #4
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The predators go after the weak, the sick and the unprepared.. The mindset of human predators is the same as any other and anyone who feels that they are safe because they don’t upset anyone is protected by nothing more than a self-imposed illusion...
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:42 AM   #5
Constantine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain View Post
Sounds like another case of the son thinking he knows better than his father.
I'm guilty of this too Irish lol


My old man carried without one in the pipe. Since about a month ago, that all has changed.



I win
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:48 AM   #6
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Granted, the victim in this case was a teenager, and so he'd not be able to legally CCW. Still, the point is a valid one; these kind of opportunistic attacks can and do happen. The gun-banning crowd will never understand, and the guy the OP mentioned that really thinks he'll be okay so long as doesn't bother anyone won't either. A legally carried concealed firearm {preferably backed up with OC spray} is no guarantee of prevailing in a confrontation...but it's a fighting chance, which beats no chance at all.
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
I'll never need a Gun."
If you care about statistical analysis, he's probably right.

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Old June 25, 2011, 10:08 AM   #8
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Statistics are easily forgotton. I don't want to be one.
Odds are you will never have your house burn down or robbed. Funny how we all still keep our homes insured.
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Old June 25, 2011, 10:31 AM   #9
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I posted this before but it is worth repeating in this particular case. A friend of mine is a homicide detective. To quote him, "It's a sick world out there and one has to be completely clueless or out of their mind to ever leave the house without a firearm for protection."

He would be the first to tell you that when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

People are getting seriously injured, or worse, for stupid stuff such as a cell phone or a pair of sneakers. Life has no value to these thugs and low life that inhabit our world. One must be ready at all times to respond as these cowards never act alone.

At one time, I had no problem taking on as many as 7 opponents at one time in a street fight. Now, at age 65 and with a severe spinal cord injury, I am unable to successfully defend myself with fisticuffs against a single assailant, never mind a pack of them. However, that is not to say I am defenseless. Preparedness is the key. Awareness is survival.
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Old June 25, 2011, 10:35 AM   #10
Wildalaska
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Funny how we all still keep our homes insured.
Thats a worthless analogy


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Old June 25, 2011, 10:50 AM   #11
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If you have a home and a mortgage you keep it insured because you are required to or the mortgage company will automatically give you some insurance you can not afford.

back on topic....

I have never had to fire a gun to defend myself and I am 55 years old. Did I buy guns so I would be safe because of statistics and ancedotes..no

Did I buy one because I believe that I have the right to be prepared defend myself and others...yes. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is a individual right because a person has a right to defend themselves which is a universal right that all people should have. Not because that statistics say that it should be legal.

The rights were around before the statistics were.

You also have a right to not buy a firearm.
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Old June 25, 2011, 10:59 AM   #12
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WA and Eghad, are you implying that people who own their homes free and clear, IE no bank requirement for insurance, don'tcarry home insurance?

I don't think the insurance analogy is bad at all.

Other analogies you might not like, but that I think are valid, are first aid kits and fire extinguishers. A lot of us have them in homes and vehicles, but how often do they get used?

(Well, the first aid kits get used every so often; still haven't needed to use an extinguisher...)
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Old June 25, 2011, 11:06 AM   #13
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There are some folks who own homes free and clear and dont have insurance....

There are some folks who do not have a first aid kit or extinguishers...

How do we count for those folks?
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Old June 25, 2011, 11:10 AM   #14
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Eghad, I'm not saying they don't exist. I am suggesting they comprise a minority (at least as far as insurance goes).

I'm also suggesting that while they exist, they are not, IMO, terribly bright.
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Old June 25, 2011, 11:23 AM   #15
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While the following isn't large enough to be a valid statistical sample, I just thought I'd look at people I've known who got into trouble due to a gun, vs people I've known who saved themselves using a gun (or, in one case, a large dog).

Trouble:

1) Cousin got arrested for "jacking deer" while in Maine. He wasn't actually hunting at night; he and some buddies (all cops from MA) had their off-duty handguns along with them, and had a travel trailer with flood and spot lights. Warden busted them at the trailer; at the time, all he needed to make a jacking arrest was for the hunters to have the gear that might be used in the act. (They were exonerated, but spent a night in jail.)

2) Family friends had a suicide by gunshot.

3) Former student committed suicide in his truck, via gunshot.

Day saved:

1) Best friend stood off three would-be robbers / car-jackers; no shots fired.

2) Former co-worker defended self against repeat offender car-jacker; one shot fired; dead car-jacker. Local police knew car-jacker and MO; no charges filed.

3) Ex-wife saved from attack or worse by stalker and accomplice by a) shepherd/Doberman mix cuing on the bad guys in our yard, and b) pulling a Beretta 9mm. No shots fired. BG's ran, and did not come back.

4) Ex-wife used same 9mm when group of 20ish guys tried to rob her at an ATM. No shots fired, BG's drove off.

5) Cousin's shepherd ran off a visitor who turned out to have been a serial rapist. Cousin bought a gun after the incident, on advice of local PD.

On one hand, again, it's too small a sample to be statistically relevant. OTOH, these are people I know (or knew). IMO, suicides shouldn't count, as the determined ones have plenty of other methods available (rope being the second most common, and about equally lethal method for men).

If we pull suicides, then in the experience of my own acquaintances the ratio of gun being good to gun being bad is 4:1 (I am not counting my cousin's dog incident in the ratio, as she bought the gun after the fact).

I'm a big fan of the philosophy, "it's better to have and not need, than need and not have."

And WA, if the discussion is on gun-free zones and mass murder, I'd think the better counter-argument would be to cite mass murder cases that occurred outside gun-free zones. Tucson has been conceded; what other examples would you throw out?
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Old June 25, 2011, 11:40 AM   #16
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I'm on vacation and there was an incident at the hotel this morning... made me wish I hadn't left my G23 at home!
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Old June 25, 2011, 12:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brmfan View Post
I'm on vacation and there was an incident at the hotel this morning... made me wish I hadn't left my G23 at home!
What happened? Please share. I hate that feeling. Only happened to me once though.


Share with the class!
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Old June 25, 2011, 12:18 PM   #18
brmfan
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Huge rave happening this weekend and some other hotel guests decided to have a pot smoking contest in one of the adjacent rooms. Then another guest (hopped up on something) started screaming at the top of his lungs in the hallway. Cops showed up etc and dealt with it but the sheer number of folks running around being crazy has me a little nervous.
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Old June 25, 2011, 12:43 PM   #19
Eghad
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The anti-gun crowd use the argument that if you own a firearm you will be a victim or be killed or get shot with it. Is not the original premise in the original post pretty much the anti-gun argument turned around in reverse. If you don't own a gun you will be a victim? Then using statistics and anecdotes to prove it.

I thought our responsibility as gun owners was to promote the argument for gun ownership on a higher level than?
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Old June 25, 2011, 12:48 PM   #20
Wildalaska
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Quote:
Huge rave happening this weekend and some other hotel guests decided to have a pot smoking contest in one of the adjacent rooms. Then another guest (hopped up on something) started screaming at the top of his lungs in the hallway. Cops showed up etc and dealt with it but the sheer number of folks running around being crazy has me a little nervous.
LOL.

Gimme a break. You are talking about pot smokers and dopers at a rave...what are you gonna do, shoot them down because they are noisy and obnoxious?

"dude, lets go break into some guys room and rape his dog"..."cool man, let me finish this large pizza first"...5 hours later the pizza is gone, the dogs virtue is safe, and cheech and chong be snoozing on the couch

Come on BM, You need a gun woobie because you are nervous?

Here let me postulate something: As many folks lose their lives becuase a gun was interjected into incidents by untrained, testosterone ridden folks as guns save lives when interjected into criminal events.

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Old June 25, 2011, 01:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
irish52084
"Never say never" as they say.

My father, who got me into firearms and CC, is terrible about carrying a gun, and this sounds a bit like his attitude at times. He only carries in special circumstances or while traveling. It's strange, because I carry almost all of the time and I think he's finally getting over that fact. He also has a bad habit of carrying condition 3 in a day planner holster. I can't think of a worse way to carry, other than not to. I guess old habits and stubbornness are hard to break.
Quote:
BlueTrain
Sounds like another case of the son thinking he knows better than his father.
In this case, the son does know better than his father. Truth of the matter is that as a parent I would like my children to turn out smarter and wiser than me.
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Old June 25, 2011, 03:34 PM   #22
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Wild: I know it's not the mean streets of Anchorage... It happens to be in Vegas, and many of the ravers came in from L.A. covered with enough gang ink to repaint the strip. There is also a neo-nazi rally in town at the same time. My buddy here is a cop and gave me the inside scoop on what has been going on that you normally don't read in the paper.

Actually, there was a murder that happened early this morning within spitting distance of where I'm staying.

"Gun woobie"... Seriously? Sounds like you need a hug.

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Old June 25, 2011, 03:56 PM   #23
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[Funny how we all still keep our homes insured.]

Not really.
I know a lot of folks who have had water leaks, hail, fire and wind damage to their homes. However, I do not know a single person who has needed a gun for defense, except LE officers.

If I had to give up my gun or home insurance I would keep the insurance. Glad that is not the case, however, as I want both.
Jerry
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Old June 25, 2011, 04:49 PM   #24
irish52084
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Quote:
Sounds like another case of the son thinking he knows better than his father.
Sounds like and is a case of son thinking he knows better than his father. When it comes to carrying, training and using a firearm, I'm light years ahead of my father and he'll admit that to you. He's much like my grandfather and myself, hardheaded.
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Old June 25, 2011, 05:59 PM   #25
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Actually, there was a murder that happened early this morning within spitting distance of where I'm staying.
Either you can spit much further than I can, or it happened too cotton picking close!
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