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Old June 24, 2011, 04:46 PM   #1
jdufrene
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jp sauer and sohn shotgun

Could you please give some info and value of my Sauer shotgun, I would like to know a ballpark value and the time of manufacture and any other info you may have or a site I could go to to get more info.
Double barrell 12 ga
Number on rear of trigger guard 128849
letters and numbers around screw on left and right side DRGM 130243
rt barrell krupp-essen
lt barrell fluss-stahl
the gun is in working condition but shows some wear. It was sent to the US by my father during World War II. He was in the US Army.
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Last edited by jdufrene; June 25, 2011 at 04:12 PM. Reason: mispelling
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Old June 25, 2011, 03:37 PM   #2
PetahW
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AFAIK, the "Crown over N" mark is an inspection mark of the Suhl proofhouse, starting in 1950.

The gun looks like it might be an Artemis or Royal model, but condition/value looks to be in the 70%-75% range.

The best way to determine current value would be to research ONLY sold/closed gun auction websites like gunbroker, auctionarms, or a specialty auction house, for another like gun in like condition, to see how much someone has recently actually been willing to pay, as opposed to some unsold asking price,

"Krupp-Essen" = The Krupp Steel Company of Essen, Germany.

"fluss-stahl" = "fluid steel", as opposed to damascus or twist steel.

.
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Old June 25, 2011, 04:06 PM   #3
jdufrene
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jp sauer and sohn

Thanks for your input.
The gun was acquired by my father in World war II, around 1943 so I am not sure what the inspection mark started in 1950 means. He was told that the DROM number on the frame was some sort of a German patent and was only done from 1900-1906.
Can you tell me how to enter an auction for value without actually putting it up for sale??
Thanks for you help.
jim dufrene
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Old June 25, 2011, 05:24 PM   #4
Jim Watson
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The (crown) U and (crown) W proofmarks were also used prior to 1939, which makes more sense on a known war loot gun. There was a date stamp used from 1922 til 1939 that I do not see, which would make the gun older, pre WW I or early post-WW I.

The DRGM mark is for a registered design which is not as protective (or as expensive to get) as a patent. Looks like it covers the cocking indicators, the way it wraps around the disk.
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Old June 26, 2011, 08:36 AM   #5
mapsjanhere
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The lag of date stamp indicates a pre-WWI production, that stamp became mandatory in 1912. It is also not stamped with the /70, so it's chambered for 12/65 (2 1/2"). Don't fire it with 12/70 shells even if they seem to fit.
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Old June 26, 2011, 08:49 AM   #6
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Gentlemen,

normally I don’t join a discussion where a potential seller is looking for a good auction description for free and doesn’t want to have anything else. But what was written here up to now makes me change my mind.

The gun is a Sauer model XIV and it was made around 1906/1907. The DRGM #130,243 (something similar to a patent, but not quiet the same) was registered on 14th March 1900 and is for the axle rib acting as a cocking indicator. This device was used by Sauer up to the end of the thirties, but the DRGM mentioning can be found (for legal reasons) only between 1900 and 1907 approximately.

Regarding proofs: Standard proofs used in Germany for shotguns between 1893 and January 1940.

DRGM: abbreviation used between 1891 and 1945.

Regarding 1912: nope, the date code marking did not become mandatory in 1912. The Suhl proof house started using this in September 1923, the Zella-Mehlis proof house did it earlier. But usage was not mandatory.

Chamber length: yes, sure, short 2 9/16” ( 65 mm).

Regards

Martin
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Old June 26, 2011, 10:13 AM   #7
jdufrene
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jp sauer and sohn

Gentlemen,
Thank you all for your input.
you are correct, I am not looking to sell, this gun will be passed down to my 2 year old grandson. I do value your technical and historical info.
If I understand you correctly, I should not shoot 2 3/4" shells in this gun??
I know this gun is in poor shape, would any of you venture on a ballpark value??
jim dufrene
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Old June 26, 2011, 10:41 AM   #8
Jim Watson
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RST and Polywad make 2.5" shotshells, no need to stress the old gun with 2.75s.
http://www.rstshells.com/rst_classic...shotshells.htm
http://www.polywad.com/vintager.html

Buy a few boxes every birthday and by the time the kid has a hunting license he will have a long term supply.

I won't venture a guess on dollar value. Are you going to take it out of the boy's allowance?
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Old June 26, 2011, 11:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Regarding 1912: nope, the date code marking did not become mandatory in 1912. The Suhl proof house started using this in September 1923, the Zella-Mehlis proof house did it earlier. But usage was not mandatory.
This is contrary to Wirnsberger's standard book on German proof marks, do you have any citation for that?
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Old June 26, 2011, 05:14 PM   #10
jdufrene
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jp sauer and sohn

Mr. Watson, thanks for the info on the 2 1/2" shotshells.
Thanks to all of you for your input
regarding the proof marks and the date stamp and chamber size, would other pictures of the barrell flats be helpful. I don't know what to look for and I don't know where to look.
Thanks again for all of your help.
jim dufrene
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Old June 26, 2011, 11:47 PM   #11
sauerfan
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Regarding 1912: nope, the date code marking did not become mandatory in 1912. The Suhl proof house started using this in September 1923, the Zella-Mehlis proof house did it earlier. But usage was not mandatory.
This is contrary to Wirnsberger's standard book on German proof marks, do you have any citation for that?
Ah, the Wirnsberger book. Unfortunately, this book is full or errors. For example, the date given to the crwon/V marking is wrong. This was used only between 1st January and 31th March 1893. The Law of 1891 came into force on 1st April 1893.

My source: the German Proof Law(s). And there is no Law of 1912, btw. There’s the Law of 1891 and the Law of 1939 (which came into force on 15th January 1940, not on 1st April 1940, btw). Period. Wirnsberger tells the story of the 1912 Law – but this is BS. The manager of the Suhl proof house showed my the records of the Proof House according to which the Suhl proof house started with date codes in September 1923. And this info sounds quiet precise, as I never saw a gun proof in Suhl having a date code prior to 1923.

Regards

Martin
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Old June 27, 2011, 03:36 AM   #12
youngunz4life
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I learned a lot reading this thread. Thanx for the knowledge and pictures- would be nice to see a couple more of this 105yr old shotgun especially one in full.
speaking of books. I am an NRA member. I received an offer on a 2011 gunsmithing 700+ page book by dunlap. would this be worth getting if anyone knows or am I off? it was $29.95

if no response thanx anyways+I think that is a good idea to save for your grandson. The worth is an interest to me as well.
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Old June 27, 2011, 07:05 AM   #13
mapsjanhere
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Thanks Martin, I'll take note.
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Old June 27, 2011, 07:15 AM   #14
Jim Watson
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Gunsmithing by Roy Dunlap is an interesting book but I think what they are offering is a reprint of the 1950 book. Needs, methods, and tools were different then; you will not find instruction on how to assemble an AR or such.
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Old June 27, 2011, 10:23 AM   #15
sauerfan
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Quote:
If I understand you correctly, I should not shoot 2 3/4" shells in this gun??
I know this gun is in poor shape, would any of you venture on a ballpark value??
jim dufrene
Hi Jim,

yes, correct, 2 3/4" shall not be used.

Regarding value: sorry, out of my range, as the market situation in the US is totally different. In any case: a plus: it's a model XIV, what's one of the better models, as it has catch bars (Sauer's standard model, the model VIII does not). A big minus: the condition.

Regards

Martin
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Old June 27, 2011, 04:58 PM   #16
youngunz4life
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thanx jim,

I actually received a callback earlier today about it. I passed. She mentioned it was an exact replica of the 1950 book as you mentioned. "historical value" she claimed. It looked nice but I passed. I would have added it to the bookshelf if it was the same book but 2011 instead(even though it might've collected some dust, it would've been a nice addition).
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Old June 27, 2011, 05:32 PM   #17
jdufrene
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jp sauer and sohn

Thanks to all of you for your input, this has been a very interesting and informative discussion.. My Father will be very excited to know the history of this gun. I am saving all of this discussion to keep with the gun so that my grandson will know the history as well.
Thank you again for you help and information.
jim dufrene
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