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Old June 28, 2011, 06:37 PM   #101
Alaska444
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We were taught by our CCW instructor to aim for upper sternum where the greatest number of blood vessels converge. The aorta is center of mass all up and down the abdomen and thorax, so, whatever your center of mass is, the major vessels are right there.

Not surprising that the perp survived since the stats are that 80% of gunshot victims do survive from handguns. Even the .45 as large as we believe it is, punches a relatively small hole compared to high velocity rifles. The wound cavity just isn't that big with any hand gun since none of them exceed 2350 ft/sec where you enter a different world as far as injuries from gun shot wounds with hydrostatic shock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
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Old June 28, 2011, 07:53 PM   #102
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COM for me is the upper torso or chest area as well. I don't care about correctness of anatomy as long as those reading understand.

As for why COM for me, the reasons are as follows. Easiest to hit, causes lots of blood loss which is the most common and reliable way to end a fight, least likely area to move.

There are 4 ways to stop someone with a firearm.
1 they give up,quit,run before or after being shot
2 hit to the brain
3 hit to the upper spinal cord located from the upper chest up to the head
4 blood loss

#1 Is unreliable. #2 Is instant but hard to hit especially with movement and angles. #3 Harder to hit than the brain but also instant. #4 Easies to get hits takes time to work, works on everyone.
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Old June 28, 2011, 10:49 PM   #103
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I always thought of COM as in relation to a 2 dimensional sillouette target, and being the point in the center of the black as the furthest point from the edge. (solar plexus, right in the middle of all the rings on the target...)
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Old June 28, 2011, 10:50 PM   #104
TylerD45ACP
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Good Point Alaska444 alot of people survive handguns. The two shots downed him though and thats what you want. You are right about where to aim too COM is the way to go unless theres is a failure. Threegun good post too. That pretty much breaks down what happens. COM is the way to go preferably 2 good shots... If that fails follow with the head.
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Old June 28, 2011, 10:56 PM   #105
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I forget where I read it, but it's always stuck with me..."two in the chest - one in the head - then re-evaluate the threat".
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Old June 28, 2011, 11:25 PM   #106
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@ Goofy Foot - Hell yea the Mozambique drill two in the chest (Acess Threat) and if there is still one follow up with a cranial shot.
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:02 AM   #107
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Last word on Center of Mass

I'm gonna try to 'splain this so even the nit-pickiest of y'all can understand it.

You're an armed citizen; you're not a cop, you're not on the SWAT team, and you're not Carlos Hathcock.

It doesn't matter if you plug your attacker squarely between his beady little peepers, so long as the only statement you ever make about where you were aiming is "I was aiming for the center of mass so as to stop the threat."

In other words, "I would never deliberately aim anywhere but COM (as advised by every acknowledged authority on armed self-defense); that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"

Capisce? ¿Comprende? Can ya dig it? Do you grok?

Last edited by Ringolevio; June 29, 2011 at 12:11 AM. Reason: Emphasis
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:32 AM   #108
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The only statement we were taught, is officer, I will cooperate with you completely once I have spoken to my lawyer. Just about any innocent sounding statement can be used against you in a court of law. Get a lawyer who has experience with CCW cases, not just a criminal defense lawyer who is used to working with criminals. Get someone that knows the CCW laws and has had experience with other CCW cases.

Going onto a firearms forum as the person in question in this thread did is just insane in my opinion. If you want to vent about the situation, vent to your lawyer or your wife but no one else. Your words will be used against you period.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:00 AM   #109
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I actually know someone who got in trouble for wounding. he SPARED the guy's life and it came back to haunt him! the lawyer had him say "I aimed center mass."

never had to cross that bridge; I have been set for court action twice(both jury duty), but I wasn't one of the ones selected.
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Old June 29, 2011, 08:07 AM   #110
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I was just in Ohio this past weekend. At a general store that sold alcohol was a posting that warned that carrying a firearm in an establishment that sold alcohol was illegal. So since many gas stations sell alcohol, leaving ones firearm in the central console may make sense in certain situations.
I am an Ohio resident and member of OFCC and wanted to clarify the above statement.

The sign referenced above is a standard sign for any establishment that sells alcohol in the state of Ohio. The wording on the signs says in part: “If you are carrying a weapon in this establishment you may be committing a felony”. It does not prohibit carry of a firearm inside. Ohio law only has restrictions on carrying a weapon inside an establishment that has consumption of alcohol on premises. With the recent passage of Ohio SB17 (which will be signed by the Governor 6/30/11) this law will change to allow CCW inside establishments that serve alcohol for on site consumption.

Based on the above, the victim that defended himself could have legally carried his weapon inside the gas station.

Another point… This incident began inside the gas station when the OP went inside to pay cash for his gas. The BG’s approached him inside and pretended to know him by calling him by a different name (common ploy). The BG then followed the OP outside engaging in casual conversation asking if he (the OP) could give him and his BG buddy a ride. The video show what happened after that.
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Old June 29, 2011, 11:36 AM   #111
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I wouldnt say anthing to police without advice from my lawyer. The only thing I might say on scene is "I felt very scared and thought my life was in danger so I fired center of mass to stop the threat". I probably wouldnt say anything without a lawyer though.
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:00 PM   #112
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Can what you say be used against you if you have not been marandized?
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:04 PM   #113
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I dont think so. If you have not been read your rights then they cannot do anything is what I understand. However I am not sure and Im sure they have used things people said before even though they didnt read rights. Id stay quit until lawyer pretty much because a Self Defense shoot is just too serious to me to just be talking.
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Old June 29, 2011, 12:43 PM   #114
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Not true until you are arrested. If you voluntarily spout off to LEO's, what you state could become the basis for a criminal prosecution against you. Just ask Harold Fish what talking to LEO's without an attorney present got him. Miranda rights are given at the time of arrest. The DA in the case based the charges on alleged discrepancies in the timeline that Fish gave to authorities that in his opinion didn't add up. His own words used against him led to a conviction that was overturned by the appeals court. They even passed a retroactive law applicable to Harold Fish due to the outrage of his conviction. Just don't talk without a competent attorney who understands self defense cases.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news...sed_07_21_2009

http://azdailysun.com/news/local/art...470e1b916.html

Last edited by Alaska444; June 29, 2011 at 12:48 PM.
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:06 PM   #115
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Thats what I was worried about thanks alaska444
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Old June 29, 2011, 01:13 PM   #116
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Can what you say be used against you if you have not been marandized?
Under certain conditions, yes.

Quote:
If you have not been read your rights then they cannot do anything is what I understand.
Nope. Miranda isn't required at the time of arrest; it IS required before any questioning. What you say before Miranda is considered a spontaneous confession and is fully admissible in court.

A common tactic for LE is to delay Miranda, but not ask any incriminating questions. Let 'em ramble on; it's all admissible.

I've achieved several felony convictions by simply putting suspects in the back of a patrol car and standing outside the car. With me not listening in, they'll frequently try to get their stories straight, not realizing that the cruiser's video system is recording every word, and the courts have ruled that there is no expectation of privacy in a police cruiser.
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Old June 29, 2011, 02:09 PM   #117
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Thanks Capt.
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Old June 29, 2011, 03:25 PM   #118
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The Cap'n is spot on.

Think about how FBI and police will confiscate computers, email servers, telephone/text logs... all sorts of things that a suspect produced well in advance of the incident, but can be used against the suspect during trial. That includes postings on internet message boards, Facebook, etc.
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Old June 29, 2011, 05:46 PM   #119
TylerD45ACP
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This was a good informative post.
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Old June 29, 2011, 08:11 PM   #120
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Captain nailed it.

The best course of action is to say the person was attacking you (or put you in imminent fear) and you acted to defend yourself. Then say you do not wish to make any further statements until you have had time to calm down and consult your lawyer.

Some officers will say "but you're not under arrest." Anything you say still can be used against you.

Some will say, "but don't you want to file a complaint." Tell them you will file your complaint as soon as you have time to calm down and consult a lawyer. Anything you say when filing a complaint can be used against you.

Communicate only as much as needed. If accomplices fled the scene tell the cops. If they threw a gun in the sewer, tell the cop. Beyond that be very careful and minimize any statements.
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Last edited by MikeNice81; June 29, 2011 at 09:09 PM.
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Old June 29, 2011, 08:56 PM   #121
GoOfY-FoOt
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Quote:
say the person was attacking you (or put you in imminent fear) and you acted to defend yourself.
It should be "fear of imminent harm". Believing that you are about to become afraid, might not cut it.
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Old June 29, 2011, 09:08 PM   #122
MikeNice81
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Goofy, you are right. I shortened it up because I thought everyone would understand. I should have been more clear.

Imminent fear of death, serious physical injury, or sexual assault are the only imminent fears that justify lethal force in most areas.
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Old June 29, 2011, 10:09 PM   #123
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Can someone tell me the address to the facebook pages? I havent read all of this thread but id sure like to read what the fool said! Ya,you cant carry a gun in a place where alcohol is served so a concealed hand gun permit is almost worthless but unless your walking down a gang banging street full of immature punky thugs I could understand.The worst places you can be at are truckstops,wow! As a truck driver I am confronted by atleast 3-4 shady looking people a night when Im out 4 days a week,yeah it gets me worried that my life is in danger so I do carry,Yes a person is allowed by law to carry a cmv at any time,That question will never end!,I still cant figure out if cops can wear their guns in a holster on their hip then why cant we with proper endorsement/license? I call BS :barf::barf::barf:
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Old June 30, 2011, 06:08 AM   #124
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Can what you say be used against you if you have not been marandized?
Just a little more clarification on this comment. Miranda only applies to "custodial interrogation." This doesn't always have to be a formal arrest such as when you are told you are under arrest and the handcuffs are placed on you. If a reasonable person would have believed that they were in police custody, then Miranda would apply. Examples of this may include when the officer directs your movements, takes you to the police department, interrogates you for hours, does not let you leave, etc. It is a very fact specific situation and is entirely based on what the officer says and does. In the absence of "custody", a police officer can ask you anything and everything, no matter how incriminating, without Miranda. There have been many cases where a guy, not in custody, has confessed to a murder at a police department, and was ruled not in custody so the confession was good.

One thing to consider here, just food for thought, when it comes to talking to police. I do agree that you should have a lawyer but I suggest you get one very quickly and talk it over with him or her immediately. A police detective who can't get information from you to assist in his investigation may have to stick you in jail overnight until he has more facts. A simple analogy is the person who won't do field sobriety tests or answer questions related to the DWI stop. In the vast majority of the cases, the person is going to spend the night in jail. This may be perfectly okay with you but I thought I would mention it. Probable cause for arrest is a very low standard of proof as compared to any eventual prosecution.
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Old June 30, 2011, 11:15 PM   #125
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If you feel like your are really about to die it's time to let the lead fly.
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