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Old June 23, 2011, 09:55 PM   #26
nefprotector
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Check this out 21 feet rule.

http://youtu.be/eexGDSsJn9c
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Old June 23, 2011, 09:56 PM   #27
Nitesites
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Only my 2nd rate armchair QB'ing but...

Though obviously unintentional, driving away* may have been a good thing for everyone on scene. Notice how all the witnesses were scrambling during and after the incident. They have no idea what is what or who is who. All they know is that one guy shot another guy. The victim/CCW'er might have caused even more panic had he remained on scene.

*Reporting the incident while driving...

Edit : Remain on scene or leave...Good topic?

Last edited by Nitesites; June 23, 2011 at 10:03 PM.
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Old June 23, 2011, 10:54 PM   #28
C Philip
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Quote:
Remain on scene or leave...Good topic?
I think he did well by leaving. There was still one attacker at large, going into the store could have just brought the fight inside where there were innocent bystanders. If you don't feel safe, leave and call 911, which is exactly what he did. I wouldn't stick around trying to hold the second bad guy at gunpoint, not knowing if he might have a gun too or more friends on the way.
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Old June 23, 2011, 11:03 PM   #29
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Does anyone else notice that Billy Bob says something derogatory on his FB page and the victim isn't even black? Shows how absolutely ignorant he is.
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Old June 23, 2011, 11:30 PM   #30
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I'd say that you need to either remain on the scene or immediately contact police (911) and indicate that you don't feel safe staying so you are leaving the scene.

What you don't want to do is make it seem like you're trying to avoid the authorities. You also want something on record (like a 911 recording) to indicate why you left the scene.
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Old June 23, 2011, 11:34 PM   #31
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Thank you for redirecting me to the thread, found it very enlightening!
Note: Don't use PowRBall
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Old June 24, 2011, 02:18 AM   #32
DRBoyle
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Quote:
Edit : Remain on scene or leave...Good topic?
In this case it fits in with what he was doing when things became physical. He left the area as what had happened was another attacker joined in.

You could consider expanding that important question to what to do after the last shots are fired? Stay, go, securing yourself and others etc.

Leaving might have been a good way to check himself for any wounds in the safety of the car. It wouldn't be out of the question in this particular circumstance to check for stab wounds or even small fingernail cuts. In the initial physical altercation his adrenaline dump might have caused him to not notice any injuries.

Using the scenario of when dogs attack you would try and get yourself to a doctor/hospital to have a series of shots if you have been bitten.

That is an important point you have raised of what to do immediately afterwards.
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Old June 24, 2011, 07:49 AM   #33
MikeNice81
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you guys don't completely let your guard down when a woman approaches you, right? that's like the oldest trick in the book.
I had a situation recently that underlined this point exactly.

I pulled in to a truck stop at 3am to get gas. It is a place I've stopped before and felt comfortable. (I'm now working the over night shift. So, on my days off I'm up when the world is asleep. Getting gas at 2 or 3am, for me, is like you getting it at 5 or 6pm.)

Looking at the parking lot from where I stood, there is a restaurant at five o'clock, a parking lot with vehicles at four o'clock, the gas station is at twelve o'clock.

A girl aproached from a cluster of vehicles at about three o'clock. She appeared to be a homeless drug addict. Here face was broke out, she was wearing a thick "hoodie" in 80 degree weather, her hair was greasy, her lips were chapped, and she appeared very tired or high.

She began tellng me a story as she aproached my vehicle. The story was simple and short. However, I knew that the few details were dead wrong. I told her I had no cash and couldn't help her. She stated "it don't have to be cash, just pay for my gas." At that point she began to come around the hood of the car. I told her again that I had nothing for her and added that she needed to leave me alone. She left and headed back through the cars.

As I was finishing up a guy aproached from behind the gas station and started heading my way. When he was about 16 or 17 yards away he called out. I was polite and said hello, but I purposely added a little bass and volume.

To make a long story short, she was a ploy. When I was firm with her the male acomplice tried his luck. When I was firm with him she started aproaching from the four o'clock position. Her intent was to bash me over the head with a tire iron. I ended up pulling my revolver. The situation ended with no shots and no injuries. I was cleared and they are still awaiting trial.

The point is that sometimes the woman is a ruse. She can be an acomplice, an attacker, or anything else a man can. So, don't be fooled because they are female.
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Last edited by MikeNice81; June 24, 2011 at 08:02 AM.
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Old June 24, 2011, 08:22 AM   #34
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I suspect the fact that there were multiple attackers in this case clarified the situation.
Well, I can think of several multiple attacker cases where the gun owner was clearly attacked by multple men; but still prosecuted when he shot (including the Gerald Ung case which also had video). Of course, the big difference in those cases were that the attackers in those cases did not have the extensive history of aggravated assault and robbery that these two apparently have. I'm sure when the CCW reported them doing something that was exactly like what they had both already been arrested for, it added to his credibility.

I think if this had been the same scenario; but the attackers were, say two local high school football guys with no serious criminal record looking for some adrenaline-fueld adventure, I think the shooter would probably be in a tougher legal scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Intrepid
While the fact was already stated better in the linked thread, the statements made by others on the thug's FB page really do reflect a bizarre mind-set...
Yes, I like how one of the friends of the thugs implies on Facebook that the shooter is weak and/or dishonorable for using a gun. Apparently she doesn't have any problem with two grown men teaming up on one man to rob him. The mindset there is totally foreign...

And in general, I think it is a good reminder that a lot of times the threat doesn't just disappear after a successful self-defense shooting. The shooter lives in the same area as his attackers and they are already making threats and talking tough. It is a good example to us all that we need to keep our heads in the game and not assume that the threat is over just because the first fight went our way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitesites
Edit : Remain on scene or leave...Good topic?
I think it is situational. You don't want to look like you are running away. Apparently the shooter got on the phone to 911 immediately and explained he didn't feel safe remaining there, which I think helped him. And I think staying would have been difficult - you've got at least two attackers, possibly more, you've got bystanders who don't know who is the good guy or bad guy. If he had shot the other attacker after he fled would we be discussing whether the immediate threat had ended?

In this situation, I think it was probably a good move. I don't know that I would try to make it SOP though.
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Old June 24, 2011, 08:45 AM   #35
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Don't use PowRBall
I do. Twice a week. 1$ each time.
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Old June 24, 2011, 08:58 AM   #36
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I've been in a similar situation. My "tactic" was to immediately replace the gas nozzle, go around to the passenger side of the car, putting the car between myself and the individual, who eventually lost interest and moved on.

Diffusing a situation and avoiding escalation with intoxicated individuals is an art that rarely requires pistolcraft.

Interesting observation... crack actually saved Turner's (the attacker's) life.

Last edited by booker_t; June 24, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
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Old June 24, 2011, 08:58 AM   #37
Skans
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Two comments:

1. I would have left too - no question about it, and then reported it.

2. The victim hesitated too long to get his gun out of the console. Way too long. I was in a similar situation - had my gun in the glove box of my car in a Home Depot parking lot. I was walking back to my car and noticed a man lingering around next to the driver side door to my car - he had his urban friends sitting in a running car waiting for him. The guy was urinating, but also looking in the window of my car. When I saw what he was doing. I told him to go ahead and finish. But, I immediately opened my passenger door and grabbed my gun. Put it in my pocket, but my hand never left that gun until he was away from my car. That was too close for comfort - gun goes with me if I'm going into any store at night now.

I like to keep my gun in my car sometimes while I'm pumping gas. But, I make sure that it is easily accessible and I always look around for signs of trouble. If I even think someone might approach me for whatever reason, the gun immediately goes in my pocket (if its not already there.) In the scenario at the gas station, as soon as I would have spotted the crackhead, I would have gone for my gun. I couldn't figure out why the guy waited so long.
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Old June 24, 2011, 09:08 AM   #38
Ringolevio
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Basic streetsmarts

As you can see from my signature, I'm a native of NYC.

It's said that NY'ers won't give you the time of day. That might be because we learned early on that a guy who asks you for the time may just be checking to see if you have a watch worth stealing (or worse).

I also learned early on that when approached by a stranger, no matter how innocent it may seem, it pays to look around and see if he has a partner (accomplice).
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Old June 24, 2011, 09:33 AM   #39
JustThisGuy
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"Don't use PowRBall"
I hope at least he got a winning ticket. Anything at least to make that visit worthwhile.

I just don't gas up at night. Not anywhere, including when I am traveling. I time my last fill-up before sundown and always in a busy station. Gas stations and ATMs are both mugger magnets. You are a captive to your task. You cannot leave until you finish the task and you are a ready victim while you are performing it. In the case of ATMs, the mugger is almost certainly guaranteed to get money too.
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Old June 24, 2011, 09:50 AM   #40
booker_t
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Secguru: You are captive to nothing. If you live in an area where you are scared to fill up your gas tank after sundown, you might want to consider moving.
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Old June 24, 2011, 10:28 AM   #41
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The gent at the gas station really didnt have time to warn the attacker to stay back. When the BG started conversing with him, he was already within 1-2 feet. This puts it into perspective how easily one can be caught off gaurd. I think I would have walked around to the other side of the vehicle and quitely pocketed my gun. If the BG stuck to me like glue then I would at least know his intent and move to plan B. Whatever that may be.

The vidio with the police attempting to subdue the BG armed with a knife was difficult to watch. The only one that should have been injured is the BG.
Why on earth would so many armed officers put themselves in a position to be in harms way.
And then there's the aftermath. Total confusion, lack of official transportation etc. etc.
I am thankful to live in the good ol U.S.A.
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Old June 24, 2011, 10:39 AM   #42
Skans
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Secguru: You are captive to nothing. If you live in an area where you are scared to fill up your gas tank after sundown, you might want to consider moving.
I do a lot of traveling between Central Florida, Atlanta, Chattanooga and NE Georgia. This covers a large area. Believe me - you need to be concerned about filling up your gas tank, especially after dark. I hate to use the term "zombie" - but that's what crack-heads are, and they are everywhere.
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Old June 24, 2011, 10:42 AM   #43
booker_t
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Skans, I hear ya.. but there's a distinction between "concerned" and "scared."
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Old June 24, 2011, 10:51 AM   #44
anonimoose
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(nefprotector's video is somewhat of a thread hijack, but....)

Please be warned -- there is some very graphic and disturbing content contained herein. The violence begins at roughly seven minutes in. I don't know if this video has been discussed in another TFL thread. If so, please direct me to the right place.

Quote:
tyrant

The vidio with the police attempting to subdue the BG armed with a knife was difficult to watch. The only one that should have been injured is the BG.
Why on earth would so many armed officers put themselves in a position to be in harms way.
And then there's the aftermath. Total confusion, lack of official transportation etc. etc.
I am thankful to live in the good ol U.S.A.
I agree. This was very difficult to watch -- always sobering to watch a life being taken, and it's maddening to see such poor tactics/techniques/procedures by the local law enforcement.
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Old June 24, 2011, 11:03 AM   #45
Bartholomew Roberts
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I don't know if this video has been discussed in another TFL thread. If so, please direct me to the right place.
The knife attack video was discussed in this thread:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ighlight=knife

It seems the main relevance that video has to this one is that the CCW in this one is lucky that his attacker did not have a knife since it is difficult to maintain a 21 foot exclusion zone in a public place.
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Old June 24, 2011, 11:11 AM   #46
booker_t
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Quote:
nefprotector linked video
Absolutely bizarre sequence of events. Combined with the camera person doing nothing to help the officer right in front of him.
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Old June 24, 2011, 01:20 PM   #47
Bartholomew Roberts
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In correction to my initial post, I must point out that one of the scumbags denies on his Facebook page that they are crackheads. He wishes to clarify that they were drinking Jager and using cocaine and not at all crackheads,

Goes to that foreign mindset thing again I guess...
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Old June 24, 2011, 01:35 PM   #48
booker_t
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Is being a Cokehead any better than being a Crackhead? Please, somebody with experience chime in.
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Old June 24, 2011, 01:38 PM   #49
Skans
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drinking Jager and using cocaine...
Yep - drunk crackheads.
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Old June 24, 2011, 01:47 PM   #50
Kodyo
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Quote:
Is being a Cokehead any better than being a Crackhead? Please, somebody with experience chime in.
Haha, I thought the same thing (in reference to the facebook pictures). The attitude of his friends/family makes me more and more motivated to carry as much as possible.
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