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Old June 23, 2011, 04:29 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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2 men attempt strongarm robbery on CCW

I thought that this particular incident had some good training value since there is both surveillance video of the incident and the shooter has made his own comments about the incident at the Ohio CCW forum.

Short summary: Drunken crackhead starts conversation with man at gas station as he is refuelling his car. Hangs around until man has finished refueling and is trying to leave. Attacks man as he gets into his car and attempts to drag him out of the car. Crackhead's accomplice comes running from across the parking lot to join in. The man in question has a CCW; but has left his loaded Glock 36 in the center console of his vehicle, so he is fighting to reach it as they attempt to drag him out. He gets a hold of the Glock and shots his initial attacker twice in the upper torso (1 230gr Corbon Pow-R-Ball and 1 230gr FMJ) causing both criminals to stop the attack.

Some key points from a Tactics perspective:
1. Classic "interview" approach by the criminal to size up the man as a potential target. The video is a good chance to learn what signs to look for.

2. The CCW states he was glad he carried with one in the chamber because there is no way he would have been able to rack the slide as he had only one hand available.

3. Investigators were great and treated the CCW with respect (his words). However, they also took his Glock 36 as evidence. The second attacker, who apparently has 5 warrants is already back on the street and posting threats on his public Facebook page (the Ohio CCW link has more on that). Luckily, like most good gun forum members, he has more than just the Glock.

4. From a legal perspective, disparity of force cases where someone shoots an unarmed man (or men) are very tricky. Even cases where there was video of the shooting (Gerald Ung for example) have been prosecuted. Luckily, the video and eyewitness testimony in this case appears to have helped the shooter avoid any serious legal hassle.
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Old June 23, 2011, 04:51 PM   #2
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Kind of a weird one - if this was me and my Glock was within reaching distance, I would have retrieved it pocketed it, or put it partially under my shirt and then told Darnell Crackhead to stop leaning on my car and to get the F away from me. As I've told other bums before "You come near me again - I'm gonna put you in the hospital."

This guy gets in his car and gets out - leaving the pistol inside. Doesn't make sense to me.

But then for me - whenever anyone (besides a woman) approaches me for anything my anxiety goes way up.
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Old June 23, 2011, 04:54 PM   #3
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The CCW was clueless.Before he got out of the car he should have checked the area and at the slightest out of place thing he should have grabbed his gun. Certainly for a drunk to engage in conversation that's a warning sign.
A gun without one in the chamber is only 'half loaded' , really dumb to even think of doing that.
Yes if you shoot someone they will take your gun.
Two men assaulting you , trying to take your gun and car is a good reason to use your gun.
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Old June 23, 2011, 05:07 PM   #4
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His situational awareness could have been better, bet it will be in the future.

I am awaiting the cabal of empty chamber acolytes to chime in. You know, the Israeli Method dudes.
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Old June 23, 2011, 05:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
But then for me - whenever anyone (besides a woman) approaches me for anything...
Any strange male approaching me WILL be met with suspicion and IMMEDIATELY challenged if they attempt to invade my personal space. IMO, that is CRUCIAL in that it readily identifies those who do not have hostile intent, as they will comply with the request. Those WITH hostile intent are checked in place before they can get into a position of advantage, for if my request is ignored, I will interpret that as intent, and prepare to defend myself accordingly.
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Old June 23, 2011, 05:29 PM   #6
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"A gun without one in the chamber is only 'half loaded'"

As far as I'm concerned a CCW handgun without one in the chamber is UNLOADED.
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Old June 23, 2011, 05:30 PM   #7
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When I hear CCW I think gun on hip at all times. This guy has a right to carry but doesn't at this time. Luckily his gun was just an arms length away.

When I leave my home, regardless of where I am going, I carry my gun. That's everywhere legal of course. When I pull in somewhere I take notice of all things. I try to keep conversation brief and at some distance. My mind rolls over different situational outs. I am very glad this guy wasn't taken advantage of like most folks out here attacked by a couple of bullies. Now I hope the law sees that this guy was only defending himself from a couple of thugs and gives him his glock back.
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Old June 23, 2011, 05:49 PM   #8
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countzero+singlestack

you guys don't completely let your guard down when a woman approaches you, right? that's like the oldest trick in the book.

I'm not going to knock the CCW. he did what he had to do. anyone can armchair quarterback, but I guess he didn't feel as threatened at first as he did once he was finally attacked. lesson learned. looks like God gave the other kid another chance too - an angel must have stepped in. hopefully he can wake the f up now and give something back to society.
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Old June 23, 2011, 05:50 PM   #9
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I'm a people watcher. I usually have very good situational awareness. But I too have been guilty of leaving my gun in the car
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Old June 23, 2011, 06:20 PM   #10
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It appears that the Castle doctrine will apply since the BG was trying to pull him out of his car when he shot. The posts on FB from the BGs buddy are, well, enlightening.
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Old June 23, 2011, 06:32 PM   #11
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Gun without a bullet in the chamber is a liability.... IMHO.. dont carry with one in the chamber then dont carry...

I have a buddy who swears he can rack one in the chamber faster than the BG can pull the trigger.... I think in real life he would find out that he is fatally wrong....

The truth of the matter I think is he is unsure of his skills and doesnt practice enough... certainly his H & K is up to the job.... in the computer world we call it "user error"
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Old June 23, 2011, 06:51 PM   #12
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I was just in Ohio this past weekend. At a general store that sold alcohol was a posting that warned that carrying a firearm in an establishment that sold alcohol was illegal. So since many gas stations sell alcohol, leaving ones firearm in the central console may make sense in certain situations. (I'm sitting here with my three year old so I am not going to watch the video now, she gets upset when people "fall down.")
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Old June 23, 2011, 06:56 PM   #13
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One of these low lifes was/is making threatings via the latest in online social network stupidity.

Regarding having a hand on your sidearm when approached (except for a woman?) there might just be a lawyer dirty enough to try and turn that around on you in a court of law. That speculation aside good work to the man defending himself. No way can anyone suggest he did anything but mind his own business until his life was in very clear danger. Like a couple have already mentioned it's a shame he didn't get the other one. Another one to shove up the noses of the anti's.
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Old June 23, 2011, 07:15 PM   #14
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I don't know about letting my gaurd down, but I don't feel the anxiety and adrenelin. I mean I get anxiety when guys try to talk to me about God, sell time shares, do polls, and of course the bums asking for money.

If I am somewhere and someone trys to strike up a conversation - the anxiety goes up, even in an airport or something.
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Old June 23, 2011, 07:27 PM   #15
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I think in that situation I would have refrained from posting the details on an open international internet forum. Most likely no further legal actions will occur, but...I suspect that posting details in public can do you no particular benefit, and might do you substantial harm. I think I'd try to stifle myself...


I must admit, though, that reading the FB pages is enlightening, to the extent that no one posting on the criminal's FB page appears to recognize that he was in the act of attacking someone violently when he was shot - and therefore bears responsibility for the incident.

While the fact was already stated better in the linked thread, the statements made by others on the thug's FB page really do reflect a bizarre mind-set...
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Old June 23, 2011, 07:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
I was just in Ohio this past weekend. At a general store that sold alcohol was a posting that warned that carrying a firearm in an establishment that sold alcohol was illegal. So since many gas stations sell alcohol, leaving ones firearm in the central console may make sense in certain situations. (I'm sitting here with my three year old so I am not going to watch the video now, she gets upset when people "fall down.")
DAS9mm, . . . we are in the process of changing this. You may have heard about it, . . . every low life knuckle dragging TV reporter went out and interviewed bartenders in the slop chutes to see how they viewed honest people coming into their bars all armed, cocked and locked.

It was a pitiful dog and pony show they put on, . . . but the legislature did get it right, . . . it's somewhere wending it's way to the Gov's desk, . . . where he is expected to sign it.

You won't have to leave it in the console any more, . . . and you can go into a restaurant that serves alcohol (or a bar for that matter) just as long as you don't drink.

Anyway, . . . I'm excited about it.

AND kudos to the OP's guy, . . . stayed in the fight, . . . put one in the hospital, . . . and the other guy is scared. It should be that way !!!

May God bless,
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Old June 23, 2011, 07:36 PM   #17
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Taking another look at the scenario you might consider telling strangers at the gas station, to not come any closer. Say that in a calm non threatening way. Even friendly if you can manage and that they can say what they want from a distance and your hearing is fine. Other than that he did well with two guys attacking him.
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Old June 23, 2011, 07:42 PM   #18
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I just read some of the things on the Ohio CC forum and I am glad this turned out the way it did for the shooter. These guys have been in and out of prison and were basically looking for someone to hurt and rob. Its their M.O. Both have extensive criminal records including aggravated assault and robbery. One guy was charged only a month ago for AG. Assault. The police told the shooter the only reason the guy didn't die on scene was because he was under the influence of so much crack and alcohol. Now these guys are on Facebook making threats and talking vengeance. This is only fuel for me to be on my toes at all times. Some people never cease to amaze me.

On a side note. The guy took 2 .45acp rounds at point blank and is walking around on the streets a few days later. The pics show the shots in his lower abdominal area. Right and mid left side. Both through and through. This goes to show that anything can happen. I would have bet my life savings that the guy would be dead as a door knob. Just some food for thought. Would any other caliber made a difference? Ok maybe a 500 Smith but anything else?
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Old June 23, 2011, 07:45 PM   #19
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From a legal perspective, disparity of force cases where someone shoots an unarmed man (or men) are very tricky.
I suspect the fact that there were multiple attackers in this case clarified the situation.

The shooter doesn't appear to have had much of a plan throughout the incident. Even after shooting the attacker he walks over and looks at him (a fairly poor decision given that there is still another attacker at large and given that the shooter doesn't know for sure that the attacker on the ground is unarmed.)

I'm not sure what to think about his leaving the scene. I think it would have reflected better on him had he gone into the store after the shooting and asked someone to call the authorities and waited there for them to arrive. Then again, it doesn't seem that the authorities are unhappy with his actions.

I hope his decision to post about it on the internet doesn't come back to bite him.
Quote:
The guy took 2 .45acp rounds at point blank and is walking around on the streets a few days later.
I can't find a link at the moment, but as I recall about 80% of handgun shooting victims survive. Not surprising since a handgun bullet, even from the "service pistol class" (including .45ACP), destroys only 3-4 ounces of tissue on average.
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Old June 23, 2011, 08:17 PM   #20
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Great thread.....Now for the PD to go after the POS posting threats on Facebook.
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Old June 23, 2011, 08:36 PM   #21
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Some information for JohnKSa in relation to the shooter leaving the scene.
The information at this time is that as he was driving away he was one his cell phone with the 911 dispatcher. He asked where the police were and then was informed they were already inbound and nearby. At that point he returned to the scene.

Otherwise the point you raise about just leaving the scene being a sticking point, is quite valid.
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Old June 23, 2011, 08:46 PM   #22
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Calling the cops ASAP was definitely a good choice. Can't fault him there and clearly the authorities didn't have a problem with his actions.
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Old June 23, 2011, 09:08 PM   #23
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That's just 5-6 blocks NE up Wayne Ave. from where I lived when I went to school at Dayton 35 years ago. And, it wasn't a great neighborhood then!

Personally, I never get out of the car w/o the weapon on the hip. But, I can see where in that state where you can't carry into an alcohol retailer that could cause an issue.
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Old June 23, 2011, 09:19 PM   #24
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It appears that the Castle doctrine will apply since the BG was trying to pull him out of his car when he shot. The posts on FB from the BGs buddy are, well, enlightening.
As his favorite movies listed on FB, Scarface, Godfather etc..

Last edited by mcwop; June 23, 2011 at 09:27 PM.
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Old June 23, 2011, 09:54 PM   #25
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Just read all 18 pages on the link: This will probably get better. I do wonder how the anti's will try and spin this one.
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