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Old June 21, 2011, 05:00 AM   #1
t3tikka250
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Neck die vs Full lenght resizing die?

I reload for a tikka t3 lite stainless in 22-250 and i bought a set of Lee dies for my reloading.

This set has a seating die, crimp die and a full length sizing die.

I am currently using the full length die to resize and deprime my brass.

I only reload for my gun so should i stick to the full length or buy a neck die?

what is best?
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Old June 21, 2011, 06:10 AM   #2
PA-Joe
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You can use the FL die to partially resize just the neck. Just screw the die out a few turns. The key is to not set the shoulders back too much. This helps extend case life.
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Old June 21, 2011, 07:00 AM   #3
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Yup, you can use the FL die to neck size, but you may have to "fiddle" with it a little bit. What you want is for the brass to go into the die far enough that the neck is sized, but not so far as to set the shoulder back. If you can find that spot where the die just kisses the shoulder, that's where you want to be.
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Old June 21, 2011, 09:03 AM   #4
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t3tikka250:

While you can wing it when partially re-sizing brass that is to only be used in a single gun, the "correct way" takes all the guess work out of the exercise and assures you get consistent result which can lead to better accuracy.

You need the RCBS Precision Mic to measure the fired cases that come out of the gun and to set up the sizing die.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=689165

You randomly select about ten case that are just fired and measure the distance from the shoulder to the base of the cases using the correct parts of the RCBS gage. All cases should be within a couple of thousandths of each other. What you want is the partially sized brass to be one or two thousandths (the gage is marked in thousandths) SHORTER than the average of all the cases you measure. That assure you will not have any trouble closing the bolt on a loaded round.

Set up the sizing die to absolutely not touch the shoulder of the case. Then adjust the die down using the RCBS gage to measure each try. You want to get to the point that the gage reads the one or two thousandths (the gage is marked in thousandths) SHORTER that you sample of ten cases. It is size, measure, adjust until you get it right. Then lock down the sizing die. Remember you cannot trim until after you have sized the cases.

This is a much better approach than to neck size with a neck size only die as the case body is brought back to the correct size for easy loading in the rifle and the shoulder is close to the end of the chamber (by one or two thousandths) for better centering of the case in the chamber and ultimately better accuracy. When you use a neck size only die eventually the cases will become hard to close the bolt on because the shoulder can eventually grow to the point that the bolt is hard to close.

This is the procedure recommended by excellent reloader journalist like John Barsness. He even has a video that describes this process and others that help to get better accuracy.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/si...9003065_d_5533

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Old June 21, 2011, 09:09 AM   #5
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The Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die works well for me.

I dip the neck in ground mica-that's all the lube it needs.

Brass last's for freakin' ever with this, provided you are not loading hot.
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Old June 21, 2011, 09:26 AM   #6
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I'm a fan of the Lee collet neck sizer, too. JimBob86's signature line applies here,though. Read and understand the instructions before you use this die. If you just screw it in the press and go, I can just about promise that you'll have problems. The only people that I know of who have problems with this die did exactly that. It's a whole different approach to sizing than the "swage as it goes in" sizing dies. I use it on my own 22-250 ammo, and get about twelve loadings before I have to full length size. I don't use real hot loads, so your mileage may vary.
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Old June 21, 2011, 10:20 AM   #7
oneoldsap
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Get a neck Die and do it right ! Longer case life and consistency is the payback !
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Old June 21, 2011, 12:19 PM   #8
F. Guffey
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You have a chamber and do not know the length from the bolt face to the shoulder, you have a full length sizer die and do not know the length of the case from the case head to it's shoulder after sizing and or after firing, and you are being told to purchased a neck sizer die, the next thing you will be told to do is go back and full length size the case and start over, and still I ask "How do they do that, fire a case 6 times, THEN, full length size the 6 time fired case to start over".

For most keeping up with two thought at once is not easy, back to the a full length sizer die and "do not know the length of the case from the case head to it's shoulder after sizing and or after firing" because! the next bit of advise you will get is 'SPRING BACK', I call memory/recovery, by the time my cases are fired 6 times the memory has been knocked out (Hammered) of them and they resist being sized. It is possible for my fired cases to whip my press, shell holder and die, back to knowing the length of a sized case, if a case whips my die, press and shell holder I can measure the amount, in thousands, of the case that did not get pushed, shoved or crammed into the die, or put another way the amount of the case that does not get sized is between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder, those that make this stuff up call it spring back, jump back, recovery or memory, I fire a case once, I get once fired cases, others get fire formed cases, I form first then fire, they fire the case 6 times and then start over, and still I ask "How do they do that, the case has been fired 6 times?"

Anyhow, I know the length of the chamber, I adjust the die to the shell holder and control the amount of sizing, because time is a factor and there is an ever so slight difference between sizing a case to the chamber and neck sizing and time is a factor etc., etc.. my bullet is just milliseconds behind the bullet when compared to neck sizing, but when keeping up with more than one thought at the same time, anyhow, I am a big fan of the versatile full length sizer.

Again, I purchased a 30/06 RCBS die set that included a neck sizer die, $15.00 dollars at the MARKET HALL GUN SHOW 2 weeks ago, useful? Bargain? Or nice to have? The problem is the die does not have case support and is not large enough in diameter for wildcats and too long for other 30 cal chambers.

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Old June 21, 2011, 01:56 PM   #9
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Neck sizing helps case life if your cases are failing from body splits. They usually fail from neck splits so the case life is a wash which way you go, at least with conventional neck dies,

Neck sizing may or may not help accuracy. It must be tested both ways fo learn what your rig prefers but there's rarely a lot of difference.

Lee's excellant collet neck die is perhaps the best neck die available but it has a moving part so a LOT of people seem to have trouble learning how to use it properly.
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Old June 21, 2011, 03:08 PM   #10
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Get aneck die. I found it to improve accuracy at long distance
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Old June 21, 2011, 05:27 PM   #11
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Mr.Guffy , neck dies are Cartridge specific , the die you got with your 06 die set is for the 06 only . If the Case has been fired in his Rifle . Then they are fire formed to his Chamber and only need neck sizing . I would suggest that you do some neck sizing before you Pooh Pooh the practice ! Neck sizing absolutely extends case life , especially in Cartridges under .30 Cal. . Once you get to .35 Cal. it becomes a Moot point ! If you are going to use Neck sized Brass for hunting , run them through the chamber to insure they will feed and chamber !
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Old June 21, 2011, 06:12 PM   #12
jepp2
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Quote:
neck dies are Cartridge specific
Most are, some aren't.

Hornady 30 cal. neck size die
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:38 AM   #13
F. Guffey
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".....that you do some neck sizing before you Pooh Pooh the practice......"

I am all for the reloader knowing everything there is to know about the equipment they are using, I am not a fan of recommending a new tool before they learn to use the old one. Some of this stuff sounds like it is being repeated from something read on the Internet, or, posted by lazy responders that do not have enough pride in their effort to provide detail. As with the Lee colet sizer die, it always goes something like "You just gotta have one" and that is it, I could have one and not be aware of it, me? I use my dies in ways that never cause me to wonder "Is there a better die" If there was I could not stand it. BUT, I am the fan of the running start, I back my bullets off the lands, I want my bullets to have the running start, there again when advising the opposite, the lazy responders omits all the details.

Oneoldsap, It is not the die with the problem, it is the reloader on the forms with the problem, I am a fan of methods and techniques and getting all the use out of each tool possible, the standard as demonstrated with this thread, to most reloaders there is nothing between full length sizing and neck sizing, it is always the same, and again how is it possible to fire a case to fire form? then neck size it 5 times then full length size the 6 time fired case to start over? THE CASE HAS BEEN FIRED 6 TIMES, and If a friend needed a FL die set, forming die, neck sizer die etc., and could not wait for one to be delivered or wanted needed a special die for a short run they would call and be surprised if I did not have it.

Jeep2, you are correct, reloaders are too opinionated, my favorite forming die is the 308 W, my favorite 30/06 neck sizer die is the 308 Norma Mag full length sizer die, not a problem but it would take 2 gigs of space to explain that, I am not tunnel blind.

A friend built a 7mm Wildcat, something like a cross between a Gibbs and Ackley Improved, we neck sized his cases with a 7 Remington Mag sizer and seated bullets with the 7MM Remington Mag seater die.


And then there are the colet dies,

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Old June 22, 2011, 10:15 AM   #14
F. Guffey
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jeep2, I do not have a problem with the neck sizer die, there is more than a good chance I have more neck sizer dies than any reloader offering advise on any form, and I know I have more case forming dies, at the risk of not being understood, again, it is not the neck sizer die with the problem, the problem lies with the person giving advise, it is mindless to advise another reloader to go straight from full length sizing to neck sizing, again, there are 16 different length cases available to me with the versatile full length sizer die, I get all the use out of a tool possible.

You are correct, a friend built a 7mm Gibbs/Ackley type rifle, he made the reamer then discovered he did not have dies. Long story, anyhow, I set him up with a neck sizer (only) with a 7 Remington Mag die and a seater die, also a 7 Remington Mag die,

My favorite 30/06 neck sizer die is the 308 Norma full length sizer die, when forming and or neck sizing the 308 W has it's advantages, but, the reloader must shake the image of being opinionated, those with tunnel vision miss out on all the stuff available on the wide screen, there is something about being tunnel blind and condensing that leads me to believe they are related.

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Old June 22, 2011, 03:04 PM   #15
Clifford L. Hughes
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t3tikka250:

Although you can neck size with the full length sizing die it's not recommended. When the case is fired it walls expand. Although it can't be seen with the naked eye, the case is buldged. What happens when you partcally size the case using the full length sizing die, the sizing die removes the buldge pushing the shoulder forward. Because the full length sizing die is backed out it fails to push the shoulder back creating a long shoulder to base case.

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Old June 23, 2011, 09:36 AM   #16
F. Guffey
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Nothing like questioning all the answers, or at least a few of them:

Again, for reloaders there is full length sizing and nothing until it becomes neck sizing, I have 5 options between full length sizing a case to minimum length and sizing to the chamber. Then there is the versatile full length sizer and the thought that limits it's ability to (custom) size a case.

Before this thread the neck sizer die was believed to be chamber specific, it was believed the full length sizer die could not be used as a neck sizer die, but, here we are, neck sizing a 30/06 with a 308 Norma FL die, forming 7.7 with a 308 W and seating and neck sizing 7mm Wildcats with a 7mm Remington Mag.

The APEX. A tapered wall case is a cone, the cone creates an apex, lay the case on it's side, roll it, when the case is rolled it will travel in a circle, the center of the circle is the apex, This means nothing to a reloader but when the case is sized the first part of the case that is sized is the neck, then the case body, my opinion, the reloader should be able to determine the progression of sizing by checking the neck.

A partially sized neck is possible without the die body contacting the case body, and, there is an advantage, the unsized portion of the neck allows the unsized portion of the neck to support the case and center it in the chamber.

And I did not believe for one second a reloader would understand the difference between a fire formed case and a case that is sized to the chamber. Or for that matter the difference between a full length sized/minimum length case and a case that is fire formed and then neck sized, again and again and again and again because I know reloaders are under the illusion a case is not FULL GROWN until it is are worn out, and at that point they full length size the worn out case and start over. And again I ask "How do they do that? The case has been fired 6 times! Then bench resters say :A case stops growing after X number of firings, and I say when that happens the case has become too work hardened to be sized, and I say do not let your cases become work hardened and when sizing a case that has been fired 6 times could whip your press. And now we are back to memory, recovery and spring back, by the time my cases are fired 6 times all the memory, recovery and spring back has been knocked/hammered out of them, I have 257 Roberts cases that have no memory of ever having been a 30/06 case.

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Old June 23, 2011, 01:43 PM   #17
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T3Tikka, just do what a couple of people have suggested and partial resize your cases. The Nosler reloading book has a nice outline of how to do it (at least my older version of the book has the outline). The basic adjustment, if you have standard dies, is to back out the die to the point where there's a 1/16 inch gap between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die. It isn't complicated to do, and the brass will last longer. I only full length resize the very first time I load a case, and then partial resize from then on. And one more thing that I THINK I've noticed, is that I don't get very best accuracy till the 3rd loading (2nd partial resize). That might be crazy, and I have no proof, and some of the serious reloaders might call me to task on that, but that is how it appears to me.
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