The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 24, 2011, 07:09 PM   #1
B-RAD
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2011
Location: Right behind you
Posts: 23
Ogive or go home for rifles...

Please do not reply if you do not completely understand reloading and ballistics...

Attention - This deals with single shot Rifle's only!

Obviously if you have a magazine or can't load single shot then don't even read this as you will load to max OAL for your magazine that still feeds reliably...

The first thing I start with is seating depth by Ogive.

I've heard people saying well my rifle like a Jump.... well that's probably because you didn't do your load development correctly and you've built a load that needs less pressure, when you could of put your bullet closer to the lands and did your load development and came up with a better shooting load than before because of this...

I've personally seen this done, I've personally proven the person wrong and now they accept my way.


Start with the Ogive seating depth, and make it so your bullet is within .01 to .005 of touching the lands, every load needs to be at this Ogive length regardless of any other factor, keep this one the same through all your loads, notice I say Ogive and not OAL, because OAL can very greatly, so stick with Ogive.

Why you ask, well it's simple, if you don't start with Ogive, you will probably just seat your bullet to the OAL given in the book, then find a load that is very good in your rifle then you will screw with the OAL last to make that load better (which works)... well guess what.. You probably missed a better load because you made all the other loads jump to the lands and just got lucky with a load that shoots "best"

Changing seating depth is changing pressures which needs to be done with powder/primers/brass later so you understand more whats going on, and whether you think so or not moving your bullet toward the lands will increases accuracy with proper load development due to less bullet yaw in the barrel.. (assuming your using a good press and dies and other quality tools)

This is a different way to think, but I truly believe this is the best way to start your load. It goes against what you were told, but remember we are all brainwashed when we first learn to do something, because human natures doesn't like change, there are a few of us out there that think outside the box, and thank god there are because other wise we would of never had FIRE or the WHEEL...

Last edited by B-RAD; June 24, 2011 at 08:41 PM.
B-RAD is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 07:18 PM   #2
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,505
Quote:
This is a different way to think, but I truly believe this is the best way to start your load. It goes against what you were told, but remember we are all brainwashed when we first learn to do something, because human natures doesn't like change, there are a few of us out there that think outside the box, and thank god there are because other wise we would of never had FIRE or the WHEEL...
It doesn't go against what I have been told. I, and most likely a GREAT deal of others on this board, have been doing this for a long time.

Personally B-RAD, there is something about your attitude that I don't like. Maybe it's the way you talk to us like we don't have a clue what we are doing. Maybe it is just me.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 07:21 PM   #3
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,806
Yeah you can get some good loads like that but remember Weatherby's shoot pretty darn good with just about any ammo and they all have a pretty good jump.
Hawg is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 07:40 PM   #4
B-RAD
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2011
Location: Right behind you
Posts: 23
@IllinoisCoyoteHunter - Just spreading the love, it may sound arrogant - Sorry

I've read and I've read, and I've heard through the grape vine... etc... and playing with seating depth is ALWAYS the last thing people do... when it should be the FIRST thing they should be doing...
B-RAD is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 08:18 PM   #5
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,505
I will be sure to tune back in for another lesson... Can't wait!
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 08:20 PM   #6
snuffy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2001
Location: Oshkosh wi.
Posts: 2,789
You say this is just for single shots? That means you're talking to a tiny minority of the people that read this type of forum. SS rifle shooters are a minority. You did NOT say what sort of SS rifle you're loading, There's a bunch of them, both modern and antiques. Does that include Contenders and encores? Or just Browning, Ruger? Or just H&R and NEF?

By no means does your process always work for everybody. I wish things like that were cut & washed, solved so easily. I'm glad it worked for you.

Us normal folks that run semi-autos or bolt guns have to be limited by magazine length, OR have to single load. Is normal length loading a compromise? I think not. A lot of rifles shoot just fine with some jump to the rifling leade.
__________________
The more people I meet, the more I love my dog

They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?
snuffy is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 08:27 PM   #7
B-RAD
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2011
Location: Right behind you
Posts: 23
Your shooting just fine :barf: and my shooting just fine are completely different..
B-RAD is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 08:32 PM   #8
Farmland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2009
Posts: 853
I have two single shot rifles. One works great this way the other needs a little bit of jump. The rifle that works well is a simple SS HR 25-06, my SS Ruger likes a little jump first.
Farmland is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 08:35 PM   #9
B-RAD
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2011
Location: Right behind you
Posts: 23
Ignorance is bliss....
B-RAD is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 08:51 PM   #10
Loader9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2008
Posts: 949
All of the benchrest folks I know will pick a powder to match the barrel length with a given bullet diameter/weight to get the best harmonics. They then use OAL to dial in accuracy. Some of these folks have been in the winners circle at Camp Perry. I'll make sure to pass along to them that they don't have a clue what they're doing.
Loader9 is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 08:58 PM   #11
RaySendero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2010
Location: US South
Posts: 314
B-RAD,

So what do you want us to reply to?

Your stating your position like your the genius that just came up with it, but not asking a question!
RaySendero is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 09:46 PM   #12
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
Ignorance is bliss....
Let me know when you can put 5 shots into a little over a quarter inch with a 4x scope and a military rifle made in 1910, with the bullet so far from the lands that I could shove in pizza in the chamber too.

But hey, thanks for the lesson.

WildimustbedoingsomethingwrongAlaska ™©2002-2011
Wildalaska is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 09:48 PM   #13
frumious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2009
Location: Carrollton TX
Posts: 521
B-RAD,

Do you compete? Or are those 1/10 MOA groups just something you *strive* for as opposed to what you normally shoot, which is above 1 MOA like pretty much all the rest of us?

Me, I strive for .00000000000000001 MOA. No sense in doing things half-assed.

-cls
frumious is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 10:32 PM   #14
1Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: west central Illinois
Posts: 275
If you want absolute benchrest consistency, there are so many variables that it takes a methodical approach to dial in the "perfect" round.

I undertook the making the "perfect" round for my .308 rifle(Rem 700 PSS). Not only did I determine the Ogive using Stoney Point's guage but I made a cast image using Brownell's product(can't remember the name but it has a set time you have to follow).

I first took and weighed many once fired brass and segregated it by weight. Loaded some mid range rounds using one kind of powder and bullet. Then I fired it through my gun to fire form the round to my gun's chamber.

After that, I took my brass, resized the necks, turned the necks and measured them for run-out. Champered the necks, and also measured the cases for incipient head seperation.While I was in there, I cleaned up the primer area, de-burred the flash hole, made sure that the primer pocket was square.

I use a single stage press for my fine loads. It probably takes me 30 minutes a round when all said and done. But....cutting the center out of a target at 200 yards(all the farther I have to shoot safely) is pretty fun for me.

Bullet jump is a judgement call to me. For benchrest less is more, I think. In the practical world, not so much and actually could create a potentially undesireable situation,

Oh well, my two centavos worth.

BTW, I'm reading "Un-intended Consequences" again and it still makes sence.

Hobie
1Hobie is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 11:00 PM   #15
higgite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2010
Posts: 279
B-rad,

I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand reloading and ballistics, but since this is an open forum, I'll reply to your OP anyway and you can respond or not, your choice.

When you set the ogive .005 off the lands, do you normally settle on a load that is between the min and max loads recommended in a manual or outside the recommended min/max range?

How about sharing a particular load with us? I know that any particular load is only optimum for your rifle that you developed the load with, but it still might be of interest.
higgite is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 11:10 PM   #16
sidewindr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2011
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 101
I shoot BOLT actions and I start out with the bullet seated out too far and magic marker the bullet so I can see the bullet hitting the lands,then gradually seat it deeper till the bolt closes but with slight drag and back off .005-.010 and try many combos (nickel,brass,new brass,once fired in that rifle,every powder that I have that will work in that gun.ECT<ECT<ECT) and to this day my best load gets me 1.125group @ 300yrds =.05 OFF LANDS, ask that praire dog that I shot at 787yrds if I'm full of it ,but most of my other loads are best .01-.015 off lands.I haven't a clue what the book oal for those loads are supposed to be.I'm not" limited" in length by my magazine. I have a way to measure off ogive so I can repeat the loads.
sidewindr is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 11:16 PM   #17
sidewindr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2011
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 101
.[QUOTE][/But hey, thanks for the lesson]
sidewindr is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 11:20 PM   #18
Ideal Tool
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,080
Hello, B-RAD. Since you said for single-shots..I'll bite. When I first got my
26" Shillen brld. Borchardt in .22 Hornet, I tried every jacketed bullet, including custom match I could find. Every load had the bullet seated touching the lands. After much experimentation, I achieved accuracy in the
.3"s at 100yds. This was my benchmark. Then I did what I had dreamed of doing for years... working up an accurate cast-bullet load. 5 years later, custom moulds, hand-made swaging dies to match 1st. band to rifling leade angle & dia., Corbin nose-first bullet reducing dies, and ALOT of work..I finally achieved best jacketed bullet accuracy at 100yds. Now I can't do this every time out..but with enough frequency to know it's no fluke. Now every one of these cast loads are seated into lands..1st. band bears rifling marks..just like the best .22 L.R. match chambered target guns. I seat bullets this way in all of my cast bullet guns, and in jacketed loads as well. Best of luck.
Ideal Tool is offline  
Old June 25, 2011, 02:28 AM   #19
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 3,767
from Berger's website,the Bulletin,article "Getting the best performance from VLD's in your rifle(course.those guys may not know anything)
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now,there is more,and the practice of loading to contact the lands is still something to work with,but the above indicates there is always something more to learn.
HiBC is offline  
Old June 25, 2011, 05:52 AM   #20
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,102
B-RAD, your the same one that started posting on Long Range Hunting claiming all this experience. One long time poster found one of your post posted on 6/23/2011 that you mentioned that you never shot at a target past 100yds. You might want to change your name
old roper is offline  
Old June 25, 2011, 08:38 AM   #21
Uncle Buck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,565
LoL, I think Mr. B-rad borrowed a page from a common/repeated discussion here and added an attitude.

I do not know if Uncle Nick, Snuffy (I think you helped me on that also) or any of the other regulars here remember me asking about developing a load for my 30-06, but following your advice, I developed a load that worked great! I was able to seat the bullet just off the lands AND get a load that fit the magazine.

I think I.C.H., hit the nail on the head.
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

Last edited by Uncle Buck; June 25, 2011 at 09:02 AM.
Uncle Buck is offline  
Old June 25, 2011, 08:54 AM   #22
wncchester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2002
Posts: 2,832
Brad - "Ignorance is bliss.... "

You otta be quite happy.
wncchester is offline  
Old June 25, 2011, 09:50 AM   #23
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,595
Guys, B-Rad is what's known as a 'troll', as in he likes to stir up controversy just for the sake of it.

Here's another example.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...97#post4630797

Another...

Quote:
Didn't even read more than the first sentence... yes.. varget it garbage for .223 Rem... Don't waste your time... here I'll make a thread.. I like arguments
I'm disappointed to see this still going on, thought it was out of vogue. Don't take the bait.
chris in va is offline  
Old June 25, 2011, 10:06 AM   #24
Mal H
Staff
 
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia
Posts: 14,549
It's not going on any longer.
Mal H is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12090 seconds with 9 queries