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View Poll Results: Your IDEAL shot size for Home defense.
000 Buck 5 4.42%
00 Buck 60 53.10%
0 Buck 0 0%
#1 Buck 29 25.66%
#2 Buck 1 0.88%
Other... Please elaborate. 18 15.93%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 16, 2011, 04:01 PM   #51
hogdogs
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Salty, nuttin' you said can be discounted... But on the note of over penetration, the same precautions should be taken whether the round is a beanbag LTL load, a 7 1/2 or any of the buck or slug loads...

Murphy and I are well acquainted and we ain't friends... He is out to get me I swear to god!

My luck, a plastic wad will sail through 2 layers of drywall and strike a loved one killin' them deader than heck... I am certain of this... I am not the luckiest fella and my X-Ray and hospital stay history bears this out.

The whole thing about know your target and what lays behind it is a statement I MUST adhere to with out waiver.

Since I will be following this code of conduct, the 00 and 7 1/2 have exactly equal chance of striking a loved one, NONE. My positioning of myself to deploy lethal force comes before my own safety as this is for the safety of my family...

Brent
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Old June 16, 2011, 04:03 PM   #52
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I made the mistake of using a hog for an analogy for pellet penetration.

But I think something to bear in mind is that hunting rounds to take down deer or medium game don't necesarily make the optimum HD loading. Nor does LE loadings in all circumstances.

Officers are often firing into vehicles with their shotguns and they need those rounds to bust through windsheilfs, even car doors or hte backs of vehiucles - like through the bed of a pickup, maybe evn go through a car or truck dseat and stiill hit the bad guy.

In HD you don't necesarily need that.

I think the advice from the tactical institute is good - you want the pellets to penetrate to about 14" in ordinance gelatin - which should correlate to adequate penetration in humans to disrupt vital tissue. You want to create as many 12-14" wound channels as possible.
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Old June 16, 2011, 04:22 PM   #53
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I like what the Box O Truth site has to say about using birdshot for defense against humans:

Quote:
Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.
However, it remains a free country (for the time being). If you want to use birdshot to defend against humans, please feel free to do so.
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Old June 16, 2011, 05:00 PM   #54
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Have y'all had to point a shotgun at someone or had a shotgun pointed at you?

The look on their face looks like what I imagine mine looks like when I almost step on a snake when fishing, or when I'm duck hunting and come across a herd of psuedorabies infested hogs out for human blood or facing down a brace of deer outta thier minds w- blue tounge craving human brains...

Thanks for the entertainment!

By the way, I like #1 or 00 but will stuff anything handy in in a pinch. Just like with the boat paddle, you gotta do what you gotta do!
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Old June 16, 2011, 05:12 PM   #55
hogdogs
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Quote:
Have y'all had to point a shotgun at someone or had a shotgun pointed at you?
Yes and yes...
In fact as a 14-15 year old, I was shot from 10-12 feet in the face with a 12 gauge wad by an older 19 year old iirc... One thing that was mentioned was that I never looked afraid. I didn't have time before the shot as it was a matter of "Hey Brent..." and when I turned my head to look, I was shot... But after the shot... everyone there said I looked like a rabid dog as I went for my .410 intending to teach the guy how you do it...

Lucky for me, they had hid my ammo before they set up the "harmless" prank...

Brent
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Old June 16, 2011, 05:59 PM   #56
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Quote:
Have ya'll had to point a shotgun at someone
no to a shotgun, yes to my ccw

Quote:
or had a shotgun pointed at you
Yes and I was armed. Was very thankful to look over and realize it was an LEO. But that sure didn't make that bbl look any smaller. Also, was a very tense few minutes,standing in my underwear, lowering my weapon as told "veeerrrrry slowly to the ground" while trying to explain who I was.
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Old June 16, 2011, 06:23 PM   #57
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If I wanted to use a shotgun for defense it would be OO buck .../...but I don't ...

(I'll continute to rely on one of my 1911's and .45 acp 230gr Hydra Shok ammo ) ..../ I live in the suburbs of a big city ...but only me and my wife in the house 99.9% fo the time ....so overpenetration isn't my issue / neighbors housed are 100' or more away from my house on each side ...at the closest...

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Old June 16, 2011, 09:10 PM   #58
.45 COLT
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I believe that any lead shot, #4 Birdshot and larger, will effectively stop an intruder. Even so, I picked 000 Buck, mainly because last week I loaded up 125 rounds and like the way it shoots.

DC
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Old June 16, 2011, 09:13 PM   #59
hogdogs
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Quote:
000 Buck, mainly because last week I loaded up 125 rounds
Yet another reason to get a loader... maybe my bad arm requires I use "progressive" gear...

Brent
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Old June 16, 2011, 10:10 PM   #60
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You can deliver 2 shots out of a 12ga as fast as you can double tap with a pistol.

That is pretty devastating...

I feel a lot safer using a SG for HD than a pistol. Someone who is armed with a pistol going up against an opponent armed with a shotgun - is outgunned
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Old June 16, 2011, 10:13 PM   #61
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It's interesting what Box o Truth says... they list #0 Buck.

Randy Wakeman also recomends #0 Buck as a close second to #1 as his choice for the best.

If you look at this poll though - it's not chosen at all. That's odd becasue with 0 in between 1 and 00 I'd expect it to be chosen by some people as a sort of in-between load or something but no one chose it.

I wonder if it's because #0 is hard to get?
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Old June 16, 2011, 10:28 PM   #62
.45 COLT
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Quote:
I wonder if it's because #0 is hard to get?
Not hard at all, if you cast and load your own shells.

There you go, hogdogs, still another reason.

Quote:
maybe my bad arm requires I use "progressive" gear.
If it's REAL bad, maybe a hydraulic or electric progressive. (A progressive press would be more hindrance than help in loading Buckshot).

DC
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Old June 17, 2011, 05:30 AM   #63
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Quote:
So, you'd rather be shot at 20ft by a load of #5 shot than a load of buckshot.
A: I'd rather not get shot with a squirt gun filled with cat urine. But that doesn't make it a reliable stopper.
B: given the hypothetical choice to have my opponent's gun filled with #5s or OObuck. He gets bird shot.

Quote:
Dead is dead
as mentioned in an earlier post maybe maybe not #5 is going to require certain shot placement. and mr BG just might not stand still and let you shoot him in the head.heck he might even try to hide behind cover.
"be very careful about assuming whatever gear you pick will work out perfectly
for the gunfight script you've written in your head" ...... smince
Quote:
then again you might believe that a .300 Win mag is required to kill a whitetail where as a .243 will do all I need it to.
Hunting is a might different than SD. .243 is fine when you can chose your shot.But when bambi's hiding in the trees and shooting back things are different. once again.
"be very careful about assuming whatever gear you pick will work out perfectly
for the gunfight script you've written in your head" ...... smince
Quote:
The point was that human life just like any living thing can be extinguished by the smallest of things. At 20ft which seems to be the agreed upon interior limit of most shots one would likely encounter inside a residential structure, both loads would have a high component of lethality. One just offers a much less chance of collateral damage.
Google "congressional medal of honor citation" you might find that some human life's a little harder to extinguish.
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Old June 17, 2011, 10:34 AM   #64
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I use Federal® #1 Buck in my 16ga SxS; Remington® #3 Buck in my 20ga SxS. In my 20ga Mossberg® 500 pump I chose Federal® 3" Mag #2 Buck.
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Old June 17, 2011, 10:45 AM   #65
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Quote:
Have y'all had to point a shotgun at someone or had a shotgun pointed at you?
Yes, and Yes. And yes I've actually been shot at and shot with a shotgun. Buckshot whistling over and around your head is not a sound you'll soon forget, and it sounds absolutely evil hitting trees around you.

Birdshot from across a dove field fired by a 10 year old shooting at a low bird encouraged by an adult that shoulda known better sorta stings a bit too..........but I digress....


Based upon my own pattern testing (and real world performance on game), I buy and use Federal LE12700 "Flite Control" shells. 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 load at 1345fps MV.

It patterns well, I use it for deer (where it performs admirably out to distances I'd not trust other loads) and it stays loaded in my home defense ready guns.

If I ever find a #1 load that patterns as well I may switch. Until then I'll stick with what I know works from the guns I own and shoot.
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Old June 17, 2011, 10:55 AM   #66
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My wife's 20 gauge 870 is topped off with #3 Buck, because that is all I can find for it. My 12 gauge 870 has 2 rounds of #4 buck followed by 6 rounds of 00, and here is my reasoning:

I live in a fairly small apartment, there won't be a shot longer than 20 feet and over penetration is a realistic threat in several (but not all) directions. Should all of the internet talk about nothing smaller than #1 working prove to be true there are still a whole bunch of pellets inside of whatever decided to come in un-invited and I have made my way to the bigger pellets.

The #3 and #4 buckshot are by Federal, the 00 is Hornady TAP.
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Old June 17, 2011, 11:32 AM   #67
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Question posed was:
Quote:
Your IDEAL shot size for Home defense.
What is ideal for Joe the Plumber may not be appropriate fro Clem the Swat Team Commander or Gertie the retired Librarian. Anybody who says there is only one right answer is deluding themselves into thinking that there is only one right answer no matter who is doing the shooting, where the shooting takes place and who or what you are shooting at. Evaluate your situation, make your choice and live with it, I hope, but don't say that is the end all be all definitive answer for everybody. If you think that then you are wrong.
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Old June 17, 2011, 12:16 PM   #68
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Well said Grump.
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Old June 17, 2011, 02:58 PM   #69
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This question is overthought to the nth degree on this board.

2 3/4 in no4 buck has killed more deer than you could ever count
Where I'm from that's all the old timers ever use.
Now, either they're either talking the deer into committing harikiri, or they're using the no 4 buck
QED No 4 buck will kill a person. Easily
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Old June 17, 2011, 03:13 PM   #70
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#5 BUCK. IIRC this is what the FBI settled on after much research.
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Old June 17, 2011, 03:35 PM   #71
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Wakeman makes a good argument that 2¾" #1 buck is the best for HD, but it's so hard to find locally, my SPX is usually loaded with 2¾" double aught, which is well received also.
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Old June 17, 2011, 07:29 PM   #72
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Home Defense, INSIDE MY homes?
I chose "other." Lead BB shot in town, light #4 Buck outside it.
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Old June 17, 2011, 07:42 PM   #73
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Since I'm responsible for every shot, every pellet, I'm more concerned with over penetration.

Might be able to justify shooting an intruder but never the next door neighbor or someone else in my house.

Due to this and after my own testing I use #4 buck.

T.
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Old June 17, 2011, 08:06 PM   #74
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I think the equation doesn't change all that much. The smaller the shot, the less likelihood of over penetration and inury to innocent bystanders. And the less effective it is.

The bigger the shot, the better the penetration and the more effective it is.

One company is now marketing the "ultimate" HD load. It's BB's. I always called them goose loads.



How much efficiency you're willing to give up in the interest of being more safe is a call we all have to make.

I once saw a charge of the popular HD #4 buck hit a quarter inch plywood door, at an angle, and not one shot penetrated. And sometimes we forget that birdshot can easily be defeated by an easy chair or couch even though it's deadly at real close range (before it starts to spread).

00 buck works just fine, and has less penetration than pistol rounds. #1 seems to be the choice of so many--even if you can't find any.

I use Federal Tac 00 buck for HD. 8 or 9 pellet without FliteControl wad.

When I leave home and the shotgun goes with me (such as when shooting on public land), then I use the newer stuff with FliteControl wad, which prodces 7 inch patterns at 25yds--regarless of choke.

NOTE: It's my understanding that Federal is now producing #1 buck in their Tactical line of ammunition. If so, Googling around should turn some up that can be bought on line.

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Old June 17, 2011, 10:00 PM   #75
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I have heard this argument several times and agree with Grump that circumstances differ. One thing some fail to consider is that the point of home defense is to instantly stop the threat. That usually means resorting to lethal force. Still, not all lethal force puts an immediate halt to threats. Depending on where you hit the bag guy and with what he may die, but not until after he has cleaned your clock and possibly taken the lives of a family member.

Also consider that if things if the occasion should arise, you may need to shoot through furniture and table tops. In an ideal world you can carry #4 or whatever in the tube and top load 00 or slugs if the need should arise, but I don't expect to react like a trained professional is a panic situation and I would plan on having nothing but what is loaded in the tube.

And should Mr. or Ms. BG barricade themselves behind furnishings, that is fine with me because my HD goal is to keep them from me and mine until the pros can take over things.

Your mileage may differ. All warranties are specifically disclaimed. Remember safe sex.
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