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View Poll Results: Your IDEAL shot size for Home defense.
000 Buck 5 4.42%
00 Buck 60 53.10%
0 Buck 0 0%
#1 Buck 29 25.66%
#2 Buck 1 0.88%
Other... Please elaborate. 18 15.93%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 16, 2011, 07:41 AM   #26
Rifleman1776
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For 'in home' ranges it is academic. The shot column will remain very small and be devastating regardless of shot size.
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Old June 16, 2011, 08:05 AM   #27
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Hey Saltydog - you bring up an interesting point and that is that the Tungsten seemed to penetrate more than standard lead, although the testers admitted that the block may not have been quite right:

Quote:
Designed as a better performing alternative to steel wetland bird loads, Tungsten Matrix is an exotic shotgun projectile material that has an even higher density than lead. It’s high density was what interested us in it’s possible application as a tactical shotgun load.

While this load’s penetration looks impressive as compared with the much larger #1 shot tungsten matrix load, it needs to be interpreted in the context of the calibration bb’s greater penetration. Temperature outside was a little warmer than it should have been when we shot this block and it was the last block of a relatively long string. As a result, this gelatin block exhibits slightly more elasticity than our standard blocks and consequently deeper penetration.

Small sized birdshot such as this #5 Tungsten Matrix load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures.

As for the hog analogy - which I was using to make a point on penetration... the sow that you took was evidently a head shot, so I am not sure how your example correlates... People on this forum have reported taking hogs with .22LR - with head shots. I used the shoulder in my analogy because of the need for penetration through the sheild, and bones to reach the heart.

It was an analogy to illustrate that the patterning of any particular shot & choke combination at any given range should not be confused with a load's penetration characteristics. Just because both birdshot and buckshot hit the target as a "column" of lead at a given distance - doesn't mean both loads penetrate the target the same.
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Old June 16, 2011, 08:20 AM   #28
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I used the shoulder in my analogy because of the need for penetration through the sheild, and bones to reach the heart.
But your analogy has weak spots too, count, You get a sho-nuff warrior hog and that 00 or even 000 isn't going very deep into the shield let alone reach vitals and will likely not even break the shoulder bones.

To reliably penetrate this shield with round balls would require hair singeing point blank distance. Anything beyond that is luck and luck alone.

You find the derndest things embedded in this material. I have found .30 cal (approx) bullets, buck shot pellets and even a long bladed 4 blade razor arrow head.

The buck shot balls were shallowest. The rifle bullets would be deeper. And the arrow head was located fore and aft but fully encased in the material and in nearly perfect condition.

If you want to poke a hog with the intentions of actually wounding it, and it is sizable, it requires a head/neck shot or right behind the shoulder area in the lower 1/3rd of torso region.

But it is not a high likelihood that a marauding boar is going to kick in your door to force you into deploying the HD shotgun.

As for ballistics gel... it is NOT THE SAME as human body material. It is, however, similar to flesh in resistance. The real purpose of it is in the fact that it is a quite stable, consistent material that can be used for testing so as to have a repeatable medium to shoot into.

Brent
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Old June 16, 2011, 08:28 AM   #29
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And one more error... The heart is no where behind the shield or bones of the shoulder... it is behind the leg nearer the bottom than the top...

I been inside just a few hogs...
Brent
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Old June 16, 2011, 08:31 AM   #30
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Ya, I see you're right hogdogs about the hog analogy, it was a bad analogy to use to illustrate a point about penetration.
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Old June 16, 2011, 08:51 AM   #31
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You missed the point, my hog analogy is that I completely evacuated and disassembled the sows head at 20ft or so with birdshot. The tungsten matrix has very similar properties and size to a high brass lead shell. At 20 ft a load of #5 shot or smaller is still extremely lethal. At 20ft a head shot with #5's isn't going to leave much more than an empty brain pan.

The plate on a hog is tough. I shot one last year with a 3.5" 00 in the shoulder and he kept on going. I unloaded the SBE then and dropped him. I shot another one with a 30'06 165grn BT handload over 58grns of IMR4350 at about 2950MV, he was hit at 70 yards right in the boiler room, no exit wound.

With all due respect, a gelatin test means jack s$^* where bullet/shot performance encouters real living flesh and bone.
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Old June 16, 2011, 09:12 AM   #32
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"jmortimer - the ordinance gelatine tests that were referenced in the article you cite may be a little off."
COuntZerO you are correct as the penetration is more than properly calibrated ballistic gelatin should produce in these well known loads. I most often agree with Firearms Tactical and the article you reference is consistent with the popular belief that for HD #1 Buckshot is the "best" of all worlds.
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Old June 16, 2011, 09:45 AM   #33
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They admitted in their results that some of the blocks sat out too long.

I think it highlights how expensive, labor intensive and time consuming these tests are...

To be done properly you need refrigeration units, really good timing, and people shuffling these blocks out to the line when they are ready to do the next test...

I'm grateful for the time and effort these people put into it to make the information available to everyone else.
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Old June 16, 2011, 10:00 AM   #34
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Well Saltydog - I realize that the hog analogy was a bad one. As far as tests in ordinace gelatin not being meaningful... as you an hogdogs have pointed out - it's not meaningful for a should shot on a hog. The shot hits the sheild or hits bone and stops - and that doesn't matter if it is birdshot or buckshot up to #00. Those loads are all going to pretty much perform the same in a hog shoulder shot scenario - they are going to stop at the gristle or bone.

I wish I hadn't used the hog analogy becasue the OP was for HD. The idea behind ordinance gelatin is that there is a correlation between how projectiles behave or perform in gelatin and how they will generally behave when hitting a human body.

Yes, sometimes a pellet or number of pellets might hit bone, or a belt buckle, or an object that a perpetrator is carrying (lots of variables) and the shot will not perform the same way it did in gelatin. But generally ordinance gelatin is a good predictor.
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Old June 16, 2011, 11:11 AM   #35
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Quote:
At 20 ft a load of #5 shot or smaller is still extremely lethal. At 20ft a head shot with #5's isn't going to leave much more than an empty brain pan.
I'd ask why you were using #5s when #7 1/2s are plenty to penatrate the head of ducks and geese. but I know the answer.

Sure if I get to pick the scenaro where the BG is going to stand there and let me shoot him in the head or maybe if he promises to stop if he gets a nasty flesh wound birdshot would work every time. Hopefully your real life will match the scenaro you've planned for.

Since some of the knoledgeable folk on this forum have schooled me on flightcontrol wads OO buck will take care of my shotgun SD/HD needs.
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Old June 16, 2011, 11:22 AM   #36
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I can understand your comparisons. Personally I believe that in most instances just about any load used in a shotgun within the confines of a dwelling coupled with the limited ranges of normal residences will produce results to either dispatch or incapacitate an intruder, that is the basis for choosing a #5 pellet. I'd be more worried about the over-penetration of heavier projectiles such as buckshot and the collateral damage or injury they may cause a family member. 2 layers of 1/2" drywall or a wood/masonite door will degrade the effects of smaller shot sizes than the buckshot while still maintaining lethality to soft targets in the direct path. 5/8" offers even more of a barrier/sheild. Or if you have the money, high abuse and bullet resistant drywall might be your choice, but you better be ready to fork over the coin for that.

I reckon its a to each his own preference thing. I hope that I'm never in an instance where the scenario comes into play. At present the community that I reside in is a quiet, small vacation destination. My new home will be in the country where people will have to get through a security gate, past the dogs, through the security system and up a very long driveway over relatively open ground. Lots of fields of fire there, the AR's and bolt guns will hopefully come into play long before I'd have to resort to pistols and scatterguns. Might even get a pet gator out of the swamp to guard the outside.

Last edited by Saltydog235; June 16, 2011 at 11:28 AM.
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Old June 16, 2011, 11:44 AM   #37
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The tone here seems to be that, if it's an ideal shot, anything will work...and that on non ideal shots, 00 is easily foiled. I don't have much faith in 00, or buckshot in general. I know it works just fine (on ideal shots) but there's less ideal shots nowadays so it seems to me that slugs are your ultimate versatility as far as a SG goes.

Yeah, I have 00 Buck in the gun. The first two rounds. After that is whole lotta slugs. It's hard to not have confidence in slugs.
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Old June 16, 2011, 11:45 AM   #38
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Might even get a pet gator out of the swamp to guard the outside.

Not to mention that yard full of hammocks they'd have to get through...

http://pawleysislandhammocks.com/

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Old June 16, 2011, 11:56 AM   #39
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LOL, yeah we got one too. Life's tough when you wear shorts and flip flops most of the year and can't remember the last time you wore socks. Heck until late November/December I was in a Bug-Tamer and shorts with snake boots to hunt in.
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Old June 16, 2011, 12:01 PM   #40
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OTHER...I use a 20ga. loaded with #3 buck, 20 pellets @ 1200fps.
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Old June 16, 2011, 12:37 PM   #41
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Quote:
My new home will be in the country where people will have to get through a security gate, past the dogs, through the security system and up a very long driveway over relatively open ground. Lots of fields of fire there, the AR's and bolt guns will hopefully come into play long before I'd have to resort to pistols and scatterguns
Arguing that the badguy iss going to have to be real determined to get to you would seem to be an even better argument for more efffective ammo
But like you said to each their own
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Old June 16, 2011, 12:47 PM   #42
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In my 590A1, the first shot is reduced recoil 00 Buck ... and the rest are reduced recoil slugs.
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Old June 16, 2011, 01:05 PM   #43
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+1 mavracer,

I live in the middle of the boonies. LE response time is same as non-existant. Sooo....I figure if they're determined enough to keep coming after the motion sensor lights, burglar alarm, 130lb protective German Shephard and 'the ruler of the roost', a very alert,yappy 15lb pomeranian that will wake the dead if she hears something strange, I figure they are very desperate and will be dealt with accordingly.
Seems we've had a rash of home-invasions around the county where it seems the perps want someone home to assure them of finding their loot of choice. Money(as always) and prescription drugs seem to be the latest loot of choice. On every occasion I know of there have been more than one armed perp.
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Old June 16, 2011, 01:34 PM   #44
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Quote:
Arguing that the badguy iss going to have to be real determined to get to you would seem to be an even better argument for more efffective ammo
Reckon you missed the last part of the statement

Quote:
Lots of fields of fire there, the AR's and bolt guns will hopefully come into play long before I'd have to resort to pistols and scatterguns. Might even get a pet gator out of the swamp to guard the outside.
But don't worry, if I were to need buckshot, I have plenty from 000 to #4 in shells from 2 3/4" to 3 1/2". Heck I picked up a box of 3 1/2" #4's from a gun shop a couple seasons ago. I imagine that'd put a world of hurt on someone if they got in.

I just don't spend a lot of time worrying about shooting bad guys. I'm more apt to run up on a rabid coon, coyote or PO'd hog.
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Old June 16, 2011, 01:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
I imagine that'd put a world of hurt on someone if they got in.
Prolly on both ends of the gun...
Brent
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Old June 16, 2011, 02:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Reckon you missed the last part of the statement
nope but I reckon you missed the point of mine.

Quote:
I just don't spend a lot of time worrying about shooting bad guys.
but you'll spend time giving bad advice about self defense against humans and even more time arguing about it.lol
I once dang near tore a rabbit in half with a load of 7 1/2 shot from a .410 I'm sure it'd prolly make a nasty flesh wound on something bigger and might detour it. of course I'd imagine most people would be detoured by a bucket of warm cat urine. Still don't suggest leaving a warm bucket of cat urine by the bed.
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Old June 16, 2011, 03:24 PM   #47
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So, you'd rather be shot at 20ft by a load of #5 shot than a load of buckshot. Dead is dead, then again you might believe that a .300 Win mag is required to kill a whitetail where as a .243 will do all I need it to.

As far as advice, one could also say that your advice is bad as the projectiles you want to throw around inside of a dwelling pose more of a danger to others within the house who may be on the other side of that partition. Or be more apt to breech an exterior wall/window and present a danger to your neighbors if they were to live in close proximity.

As to self defense against humans, answer this, are more people killed in a year by .22lr or the .50 BMG? Are more people electricuted by 110 or 220? Human life is frail and just like everything else shot placement is key. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. Chances are the bad guy would end up the same way but collateral damage and injury to others won't be as prevelant on my end.
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Old June 16, 2011, 03:38 PM   #48
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Quote:
As to self defense against humans, answer this, are more people killed in a year by .22lr or the .50 BMG? Are more people electricuted by 110 or 220?
Irrelevant... You have to factor in "rounds fired per capita" per caliber or "electrocutions per capita" per voltage... And I am also an electrician so I know both voltages are lethal. But far fewer end consumers come into contact with the electricity leaked from 220 and of those, many just get one side which is still 110v range.

How many hundreds of thousands of .22lr are fired for every hundred rounds of .50 BMG? And you would also factor in the people discharging each size caliber... Predominately the .50 BMG is owned and operated by highly experienced gun owners which cannot be said for the venerable .22lr.

Brent
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Old June 16, 2011, 03:51 PM   #49
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Man I seen a deer killed by 6 shot at 30 feet. You can never ever say how a shot will effect anything until it is shot.

I use 00 buck in a 3 in mag cause I got a large amount for real cheap like 30 years ago only shot 10 or so shells so far, got a couple hundred.

I also read where a man was shot in the belly by his kids son, he lived but isnt the same.

One pellet in the heart is all it tqakes to die. A bb gun can kill you and I have proof of that many times over. Dont play with these things, just cause it has 7 shot dont make it worthless, it can and will kill ya.

Some day I will tell about the guy shot himself in his eye with a bb gun, I saw the whole thing.....
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Old June 16, 2011, 03:53 PM   #50
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The point was that human life just like any living thing can be extinguished by the smallest of things. At 20ft which seems to be the agreed upon interior limit of most shots one would likely encounter inside a residential structure, both loads would have a high component of lethality. One just offers a much less chance of collateral damage.

I for one would rather not kill a bad guy in my home with buckshot and walk into the next room and find that I had also killed my child or wife. Others might disagree but again and for the last time it my personal opinion and a choice I hope to never have to make.
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