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Old June 16, 2011, 07:34 PM   #26
Gehrhard
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Lee;
U r of course right re: the 2-3/4" vs. a 3", depending on range. Same philosophy holds to the premise of the post ignoring the more effective/efficient #1 and 0 Buckshot. Bigger isn't better -- otherwise we'd all be pushing 3" 000 Buck or some 3-1/2" 10 ga.

3-2-1: "hey, that makes sense -- why have us readers been following what the manufacturers pushed for hunting as an HD round too -- dur"?!

Hog;
MY posts have each tried to include information pertinent to this thread, nothing singularly personal/debateable/difference of opinion that'd hijack it and I almost succeeded.

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Old June 22, 2011, 12:58 AM   #27
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kicker

A three inch 12, especially in an alloy frame gun like a Mossberg, will rock you for sure.

The 2.75 loads kick less with all the perks and are all you need.
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Old June 28, 2011, 05:53 PM   #28
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You can get 2 3/4" that hold 12 pellets just three shy of 15. 2 3/4 loads are fine with me and that what I stick to mostly. However I do throw in 3 inch Mags for flavor some slugs and buckshot #4 41 pellet and 000 12 pellet.
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Old June 28, 2011, 07:58 PM   #29
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Tyler;
Those are 2-3/4" MAGNUMS. Compare the velocity retained despite a 1/3rd increase in payload weight. These are cool and I believe they have hunting and more security use than regular 00 Buck as well because of the hit probability/wound channels and energy retention AT DISTANCE.
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Old June 28, 2011, 08:38 PM   #30
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No they are not MAGNUMS. They are a standard load I have them I know.
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Old June 29, 2011, 10:27 PM   #31
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Tyler;
Yes, they are a standard load that have been made by many firms for ages. What you have are known as 2-3/4" Magnums.
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Old June 30, 2011, 12:20 AM   #32
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They are not but whatever you say. I know what I have.
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Old June 30, 2011, 06:59 AM   #33
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@TylerD45ACP and @Gehrhard
Both of you are corrrect and wrong at the same time. A little history lesson for you.
A long time ago shotgun shells were loaded with black powder it was measured in drams. When they started using smokeless powder they used dram equivelant to denote the relative powder charge. 3 3/4 - 4 dram 12 guage loads were considered magnum loads. Most 4 dram loads were marked Max as this is considered the maximum. The fact that nobody knows what dram equilvant means anymore and that powder developement has allowed better velocities than were obtainabble baack in the day. Many companies have gone to marking actual velocitiy on the box. Many have also dropped the term magnum from all 2 3/4" loadings all together. I assume so some who have what I call magnumitis will feel the need to buy the more expensive 3" magnums. Bottom line both the standard velocity 9 OO buck loads the ones going 1300 fps not the reduced recoil ones and the 12 pellot loads should most certainly be concidered 2 3/4" magnum loads no matter what is printed on the box.
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Old June 30, 2011, 09:29 AM   #34
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MAGNUMITIS

Now thats a new one for me.

Thanks for the laugh Mavracer.
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Old June 30, 2011, 02:21 PM   #35
TylerD45ACP
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Ok Ill take your word for it. No magnum on the box but it is I guess? 2 3/4" is all you really need for a 12gauge. Maybe a few 3" mags for flavor.
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Old June 30, 2011, 07:33 PM   #36
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I respectfully disagree with the way you outline that there Mav.

EVERY 00 Buck manufacturer has the standard 2-3/4" 9-pellet 1,325 fps 12 ga. Every major American manufacturer has 2-3/4" 12-pellet 1,290 fps 12 ga. (actually Win says their's is 1,295). These still are the "2-3/4 magnums." A 1/3rd increase in payload weight with a 3% reduction in velocity. These used to be common in the PD's. Another example of how times have changed. We can't easily help people's previous "experience" or temperment.

No, I don't think the Win. 2-3/4" 9-pellet version at 1,450 fps would be called a 2-3/4" magnum -- that has been reserved for 12-pellet. I would think these boxes should say Ackley Improved so experienced and knowledgable shooters would know what they are.
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Old June 30, 2011, 10:58 PM   #37
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No, I don't think the Win. 2-3/4" 9-pellet version at 1,450 fps would be called a 2-3/4" magnum
Right off Midways websight lol
Quote:
Winchester Supreme High Velocity Magnum Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" Buffered 00 Copper Plated Buckshot 9 Pellets Box of 5
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Last edited by mavracer; July 1, 2011 at 05:19 AM.
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Old July 1, 2011, 06:52 AM   #38
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Viva le difference (sp?). But...

Winchester Supreme High Velocity Magnum Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" Buffered 00 -- they stuck that in the name very intentionally for a reason methinks. Otherwise it would be alluding to something else, as I've said. Not that they couldn't name it any darned thing they want, or not. And I'll bet they struggled putting Magnum on the box at all too these days as to many that only means 3" shells (formerly 3" Magnum).

Happy Independence Day weekend all. Let's fly our flags high and all do something uniquely American, and FOR America, during it!

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Old July 2, 2011, 01:20 PM   #39
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How about 2 3/4" #1 Buckshot. I wish there was more of this around it seems like the best all around HD Shell.
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Old July 2, 2011, 02:10 PM   #40
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it seems like the best all around HD Shell.

Rumor control has it that Federal is coming out with a FliteControl load of #1. If they do, that might actually make #1 buck pattern worth two cents in at least one of the shotguns I own, NONE of which so far have demonstrated any ability to pattern conventional loads of #1 buck worth calling it a pattern. I don't care how "ideal" #1 buck is in print, how many pellets it has in a load, how efficient it is, if it won't pattern ON PAPER it isn't worth using as far as I'm concerned.

Give me a load of #1 that'll keep all its pellets in a sheet of notebook paper at 25 yards and I'll be a happy camper. Till then, I'll stick with a load of 00 that does what I want where patterns are concerned.

Are you listening, ATK???

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Old July 2, 2011, 03:52 PM   #41
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Yeah. Thing is...

...at 25 yards, NO shotgun choke is SUPPOSED to have as small as an 8-1/2" (notebook sheet width) pattern. Maybe that's your holy grail, but that's obviosuly out of spec for usual shotgun and shell design. And to hold them to that standard may be your personal interest but, to be fair and clear, it isn't anything else.

At 25 meters or so, I WANT the gun/choke/shell to produce the industry-standard 30" pattern.

Last edited by Gehrhard; July 2, 2011 at 04:01 PM.
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Old July 2, 2011, 04:13 PM   #42
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@ Lee Lapin that would be awesome if they did come out with one. I agree though stick to what patterns well. Like 00 Buck which you can get in 2 3/4 with 12pellets. Thats alot of power. At 25 yards a shotgun spread could be pretty tight cylinder bore. Not sure how tight but it would be all Torso.
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Old July 2, 2011, 08:42 PM   #43
Lee Lapin
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Yeah. Thing is...

...at 25 yards, NO shotgun choke is SUPPOSED to have as small as an 8-1/2" (notebook sheet width) pattern. Maybe that's your holy grail, but that's obviosuly out of spec for usual shotgun and shell design. And to hold them to that standard may be your personal interest but, to be fair and clear, it isn't anything else.

At 25 meters or so, I WANT the gun/choke/shell to produce the industry-standard 30" pattern.


======

All hail Gehrhard, Ruler Of The World! Definer of what is SUPPOSED TO BE!

I don't CARE what the OLD industry standard is - the NEW industry standard is FliteControl. YOU can be a stick-in-the-mud scattergun shooter if you want, that's YOUR preference. And by the way, I'm not here to tell YOU that YOU cannot go for whatever level of performance YOU want out of YOUR shotgun and load. You are perfectly welcome to set YOUR OWN standard and do whatever it takes to achieve that standard.

Why is it that you are so intent on telling me I cannot have - and am not even supposed to WANT - a load that meets my own self defined standard for my own purposes? What is it that disqualifies me from determining what I want my shotgun and load to do? Am I not old enough? Do I not have enough experience? Do I not have enough formal training? Have I not spent enough money and experimented enough with shotguns and buckshot to be able to know what I want when I see it?

I've been shooting 00 buckshot patterns at 25 yards on 3x5" INDEX CARDS for over ten years now, with three different chokes and loads. My current choice (Federal LE127 00 in a factory Remington 18" CYL bore barrel) is a bit more open than that, it usually does 4" patterns at 25 yards. But I can live with that...

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Last edited by Lee Lapin; July 2, 2011 at 08:49 PM.
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Old July 2, 2011, 09:46 PM   #44
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Gehrhard,a 30" pattern will put about half the pellets OFF a human torso. Mine is about 21" wide at the shoulder and I'm a behemoth.

Lee is an old Net friend and Co-Moderator on another forum with me. He's quite knowledgeable and has spent oodles of time researching and testing.

More oodles of time have been spent by him patiently answering shotgun queries,often over and over.

And if he wants a load that will pattern inside a poker chip at 25 yards, so be it. He has his reasons....
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Old July 2, 2011, 09:58 PM   #45
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Quote:
More oodles of time has been spent by him patiently answering shotgun queries,often over and over....AND FOR THAT WE ARE ALL GRATEFUL
Fixed it for ya Dave.
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Old July 2, 2011, 10:08 PM   #46
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Mr. Dave: I know Lee and you have probably forgotten more about shotgunning than I'll ever know.

But I was pretty clear: Lee, you are entitled to follow your dream.

But to imply #1 Buck isn't patterning well unless 100% of it is in about eight inches (8") at 25 yards is a little misleading. And this is a shotgun thread. With inexperienced shooters. On a shotgun forum. Sure, we've seen that opinion popping-up on the internet: 'a tighter pattern is better.' That is inaccurate. The correct pattern is better. If that is a tight pattern, fine. With recent options, which are downright cool, if it is essentially no pattern and that's what you want, and you can get there, more power to ya (and all of us). But we should at least explain that this is an irregular personal opinion that is antithetical to the established safe shooting sports. So is intending/expecting to hit your target with every pellet...

Here's a handy reference for the state-of-the-art at the 25 yards cited...

http://www.fieldandclays.com/expert_chokes.htm

Last edited by Gehrhard; July 2, 2011 at 10:29 PM.
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Old July 2, 2011, 10:23 PM   #47
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I don't know much about shotuguns or guns, but all my life I have dealt with questions about "industry standards". If you are going to argue about standards, you first must ascertain the use against which the standard is being applied. One person might desire a 30 inch pattern for shooting clays at the same distance that a LEO might want a much smaller pattern in hopes of avoiding collateral damage.

I just saw Gerhard's posting done while I was writing this and it says it all. He is talking about the standard for Clay Sports. Others are talking about taking a human out. The standards for each are very different.
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Old July 2, 2011, 10:30 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gehrhard
Here's a handy reference for the state-of-the-art at the 25 yards cited...
A "standard" for trap/skeet using birdshot is applicable to SD/HD using buckshot, how?
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Old July 2, 2011, 10:39 PM   #49
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Don't think that is the case Klaw, though they ARE subject to change and the vagueries of individuals and bureacratic administrative attorneys which is with whom the Flite-Control concept originated -- to minimize collateral damage and innocent bystander law-suits.

If a tight pattern for shooting anything other than clay targets was the norm than we'd all be choking down our guns to "Coyote" off the Trap and Skeet range. And buckshot-loaded HD guns down to whatever minimized their pattern. But as a rule, we don't. In fact, what is the ubiquitous 'security' choke? None! The exact opposite!! Open Cylinder!!!

It comes down to knowledge of what the gun will do and what that means at the ranges it will be employed, for what.

4-inch pattern now at 25 yards eh!?

Last edited by Gehrhard; July 2, 2011 at 10:53 PM.
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Old July 2, 2011, 11:00 PM   #50
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WOW. This is just incredible.

Think of it this way Gehrhard, the site you gave has absolutely nothing to do with what Lee Lapin is talking about WANTING to do or is doing.

Read the bottom sentence of the site you refered to. The one written by the sites author that states something to the effect of that whole thing being a very basic choke course.

What Lee's doing is far beyond what you referenced and has no bearing in what he's doing.

Also, I saw no where in Lee's posts implying to anyone that #1buck isn't patterning well unless 100% of it is about 8" @ 25yds....

...and your response to Klawmans post makes no sense what-so-ever
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