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Old June 13, 2011, 02:21 PM   #1
RoentgenRanger
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6.5x55 Quickload Data

Hi all. New to The Firing Line. Just finished building a long range 6.5x55, Savage 110 action, ER Shaw 26" factory varmint contour barrell, B&C Duramax stock. I'm looking for Quickload data for 140gr bullets in the 58-60,000 psi range. I'm currently using 48gr of Re22 and averaging around 2800fps. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old June 13, 2011, 02:54 PM   #2
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I will QL it for you if you give me all the parmeters, ie bullet, OAL...

If you are running a 140 at 2800 fps, stop there.

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Old June 13, 2011, 03:36 PM   #3
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Case capacity of a fired case in grains of H20 will help as well.
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Old June 13, 2011, 09:53 PM   #4
RoentgenRanger
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6.5x55

I'm using 140gr A-max (BC .585, OAL 3.090) and 140gr Nosler Custom Competition (BC .529, OAL 3.090). I've been using Re-22, but have H4831SC, IMR 4831, and Re-19. I've also run some 85gr Sierras and Hornady 95gr V-Maxes, but I think the 1 in 8" doesn't seem to like them as much, then again, the prairie dog at 400 didn't either...

This is the first build I've attempted and it's gone quite well so far.

Thanks in advance,


John
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Old June 15, 2011, 10:30 AM   #5
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H2O Case Capacity

Not tried this before. It seem to me that weigh the case empty, then full. Is that right?
A fair amount of the reading I've done states that the Swede will operate at .30-06 pressures just fine in a modern bolt gun. Any additional stuff would be appreciated.
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Old June 15, 2011, 10:37 AM   #6
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Try RL-17. I'm just about to use it for loading up some .260 (very similar to the 6.5x55). Quickload shows it to be a good match.
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Old June 15, 2011, 12:26 PM   #7
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I have had no luck with RL17 or 19 in various swede rifles.

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Old June 15, 2011, 01:28 PM   #8
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QuickLOAD produces a lot of data for each bullet and powder combination. So I will post just some of it for the 140 gr A-max and Re22. Remember that QuickLoad ifs THEORETICAL data and should be cross checked with a manual and worked up from start loads. It is also using generic case capacity , etc. so you have to account for any thing that differs in your situation.

The SAAMI max pressure for the 6.5x55 is 55K psi, so use this data at your own risk.

Cartridge : 6.5 x 55 Swedish
Bullet : .264, 140, Hornady A-MAX 26332
Useable Case Capaci: 52.038 grain H2O = 3.379 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.150 inch = 80.01 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Code:
Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   78    37.60   2205    1511   25469   7932     87.5    1.816
-18.0   79    38.54   2260    1588   27104   8209     88.8    1.772
-16.0   81    39.48   2316    1668   28848   8480     90.2    1.730
-14.0   83    40.42   2373    1750   30707   8744     91.4    1.688
-12.0   85    41.36   2429    1834   32690   9000     92.6    1.647
-10.0   87    42.30   2486    1921   34807   9246     93.7    1.607
-08.0   89    43.24   2542    2009   37066   9482     94.7    1.568
-06.0   91    44.18   2599    2100   39482   9707     95.6    1.521
-04.0   93    45.12   2655    2192   42064   9919     96.5    1.476
-02.0   95    46.06   2712    2286   44827  10118     97.2    1.434
+00.0   97    47.00   2768    2383   47784  10303     97.9    1.392  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   99    47.94   2825    2481   50956  10472     98.5    1.352  ! Near Maximum !
+04.0  101    48.88   2881    2580   54356  10626     99.0    1.314  ! Near Maximum !
+06.0  103    49.82   2937    2681   57987  10762     99.4    1.276  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  105    50.76   2993    2784   61855  10881     99.7    1.240  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  107    51.70   3048    2888   65997  10981     99.9    1.206  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     97    47.00   2913    2637   58356  10112    100.0    1.282  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     97    47.00   2575    2061   38355   9880     91.0    1.534


Cartridge : 6.5 x 55 Swedish
Bullet : .264, 140, Hornady A-MAX 26332
Useable Case Capaci: 52.038 grain H2O = 3.379 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.150 inch = 80.01 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 120 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !


Code:
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570                    113.2     57.3     3.71    3051    95.6    60000   12428   1.240  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H870                       119.9     59.4     3.85    3032    97.3    60000   12072   1.241  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Retumbo                    116.8     56.4     3.65    3026   100.0    60000   11162   1.237  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-25                 109.9     52.4     3.40    2998   100.0    60000   10541   1.244  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560                    103.6     50.8     3.29    2991    98.5    60000   11275   1.250  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy)           106.1     54.5     3.53    2990    99.2    60000   11098   1.241  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828                           108.0     50.3     3.26    2974    98.8    60000   10888   1.242  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC                       102.2     50.3     3.26    2974    98.8    60000   10888   1.242  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22                 103.8     50.3     3.26    2967    99.5    60000   10827   1.257  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR                     106.6     50.6     3.28    2966    99.5    60000   10844   1.258  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H1000                      112.5     53.4     3.46    2947    98.9    60000   10624   1.240  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-19                 100.3     48.1     3.12    2919    99.4    60000   10295   1.258  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Hunter                      95.9     47.5     3.08    2912   100.0    60000    9915   1.265  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H414                        90.5     45.9     2.98    2908    99.9    60000    9946   1.267  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 760                      90.5     45.9     2.98    2908    99.9    60000    9946   1.267  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori 24N41                   114.4     58.5     3.79    2900    88.8    60000   10941   1.250  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4831                      105.7     49.3     3.19    2894    98.1    60000   10172   1.256  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4831 SC                   101.6     49.3     3.19    2894    98.1    60000   10172   1.256  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon US 869                     120.0     61.3     3.97    2889    88.6    58885   10985   1.264  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N550                     92.6     45.4     2.94    2888   100.0    60000    9594   1.277  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon 50BMG                      120.0     58.4     3.79    2880    84.4    58516   11021   1.267  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N170                    115.6     54.8     3.55    2878    93.8    60000   10483   1.275  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester Supreme 780              99.1     50.1     3.25    2872    99.3    60000    9793   1.264  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4831                           100.1     46.0     2.98    2869   100.0    60000    9257   1.283  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N165                    105.9     50.3     3.26    2867    99.6    60000    9596   1.269  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N160                    105.8     48.6     3.15    2847    98.6    60000    9603   1.266  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H380                        88.0     43.2     2.80    2844   100.0    60000    9132   1.283  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                101.3     45.4     2.94    2843   100.0    60000    8714   1.275  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4007 SSC                        90.0     43.8     2.84    2831    99.8    60000    9302   1.278  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ETA: Thanks Unclenick for the "code" format tip!
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Old June 15, 2011, 02:18 PM   #9
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RoentgenRanger,

Well, at least reloading isn't radioactive.

Yes to your case fill. You want the as-fired case water capacity level with the mouth (no meniscus). For rounds shot at over around 30,000 psi, powder burn is affected by the capacity of the case after it has expanded to fill the chamber rather than the resized capacity. QuickLOAD uses that data to adjust internal expanded powder space change with the changes in bullet seating depth. Your bullet, it's length, and the COL you are using are therefore relevant arguments to the program's input and will affect the results.


NWPilgrim,

Put square brackets around the word "code" followed by square brackets around "/code", then insert the data you copied from QL in between the two bracketed words. This will create a window that doesn't delete the extra spaces that keep the columns of QL data straight.
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Old June 16, 2011, 07:23 PM   #10
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Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like 48gr of Re22 is probably a good place to be. That QuickLOAD stuff is pretty cool stuff.
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Old June 22, 2011, 10:17 AM   #11
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For long range compettions in Norway (up to 660 yards) i use 140grs A-max and 48,5-49 grs of MRP powder. Its the same as RL22.
I get superb accuracy and 2800 fps muzzle velocity.
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Old August 18, 2011, 01:37 PM   #12
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How much pressure difference would it make with an OAL of 3.090?
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Old August 18, 2011, 01:52 PM   #13
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QuickLOAD says it adds about 2000 psi.

A reality check though: unless we know your actual fired case capacity, that could be off. Also, if your chamber has a short or long freebore it could be off. The way to get an accurate number is to measure case water overflow capacity the way I described and also your barrel length. Shoot a known safe load of that powder and bullet over a chronograph, and measure the actual velocity achieved on a chronograph. With that information QuickLOAD can be tweaked to provide a closer result to the real case in your particular gun.

Note the warnings that 48 grains is at or near maximum in the predictions. That means you want to back the load off 10% and work up to it in 2% steps to make sure you don't get any pressure signs by the time you get to that full 48 grain load.
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Old August 18, 2011, 02:50 PM   #14
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Old August 18, 2011, 04:30 PM   #15
RoentgenRanger
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I started at 46gr. and worked up. No case head expansion, ejector marks, loose, cratered, flattened primers, etc. I'll measure the case capacity. Not being a ballistician (or all that smart for that matter), wouldn't it stand to reason that the 6.5 would tolerate .270 pressures in a modern rifle (my 110)?
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Old August 18, 2011, 09:07 PM   #16
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The gun should, but brass that wasn't made in anticipation of that pressure may not. You just have to keep an eye on it. Most will be fine on first firing, since proof loads go into standard cases, but watch out for rapid aging and for some of the stuff out of non-modern foreign countries not to have good durability. Also watch out for Federal brass on this side of the pond, as it is soft.

I also don't like to load past 58,000 psi if I don't need to. Geoffry Kolbe's ballistics book warns that loads over that pressure start to eat throats disproportionately faster.
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Old August 18, 2011, 10:30 PM   #17
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Knowing what pressure cartridges and rifles will take is secret knowledge, and cannot be shared in load books or forums.

Those who know the answers have a secret handshake, if they still have hands.

I was at one of the meetings and asked if I should cut down 357 mag brass, to get the stronger case heads for use in 38 specials. An old guy laughed and said, "38 Special brass is strong enough for anything, kid!". His name was Elmer Keith and he taught me the secret handshake. I will show it to you, kid, but you must put a blindfold on Uncle Nick. He belongs to the SAAMI sect, and they have their own handshake.
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Old August 18, 2011, 11:49 PM   #18
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Is that the one finger handshake?
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Old August 19, 2011, 12:17 PM   #19
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Heh, heh. I like that secret handshake approach.

I suppose I actually subscribe to Wm. C. Davis, Jr.'s classification of the two schools as subjective vs. objective pressure interpretation. The division isn't quite that clean, but it makes for a fun argument. The first school interprets brass and primer and sticky extraction and sometimes velocity indicators as clues to stress levels in the shooting platform, while the latter devise tools that quantify pressure measurement, though calibration is a sticky issue for fast dynamic pressure events. I would say it is better to follow Davis' approach and call it the Subjectivites vs. Objectivites, rather than Keithites vs. SAAMIites.

Subjectivites vs. Objectivites also might be looked at as Immediites vs. Longtermites. The former see no reason for the latter as long as immediate subjective stress signs don't result. The latter is geared more toward avoiding long-term metal fatigue and premature barrel erosion, neither of which are subjectively apparent until after you get there, but both of which may be anticipated using objectively quantified pressures. (That is, provided you get consistent results. That matters more than absolute precision in this regard, and is a place where copper crushers frequently fall down.) In SAAMI's case, ammo portability between different platforms is the issue, and, in particular, safety in guns the load has never yet been tried in. Handloaders don't have to worry about that last one if they dedicate a load to a particular gun.
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Old August 19, 2011, 02:38 PM   #20
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According to professor Keith Stamm at the University of Washington, the terms "objective" and "subjective" are always applied subjectively...especially when someone says he is being objective.

I think of it as sane vs insane.

The pressures were registered with SAAMI a long time ago, to be as close as possible to what the brass could take. The guns are much stronger than the brass, in "strong guns".

So if measurement methods change or brass gets better or worse, the registered pressure would change... no.

So if pressures were registered too high or low, they would be revised upwards... no.

So if there are handloading forums, then we would be flush with posters saying "Those SAAMI standards are for selling ammo. In your rifle, you should just focus on reality, not some erroneous fantasy... no.

No... the way it works is, those who are load book fundamentalists have taken leave of their senses and look to the book or a strain gauge or whatever indirectly related source and not to the original design driver.. the brass.

Taking leave of the senses is a hundreds of years old way of saying "insane".

Loosing sight of the goal of developing a load for a strong rifle, long brass life, is usually caused by fears and getting caught up in process.

And to make things complicated, if you were to teach a 6 year old how to handload in a few minutes, you would start him out with the load book fundamentalist technique. If he never progresses, he may be thumping a load book 60 years later.
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Old August 19, 2011, 02:49 PM   #21
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Keithite: Experiment until you fall over the knee of the curve, then retro-adjust.
SAAMIite: Determine where that knee is before you hit it, and you kneedn't fall over it in the first place.

Both work.
But you have to have your equipment together for the SAAMIite method -- often an expensive venture.
The Keithite technique requires you have your act togther -- oft times even more priceless a commodity

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Old August 19, 2011, 04:44 PM   #22
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I have never found the need or urge to push my loads anywhere close to max pressures by either subjective or objective means. I can understand those that want to experiment and push the envelop out of curiosity. But for me a bullet going a couple of 100 fps slower still does everything I need. If I need faster or more energy then I have guns with other cartridges to do that.

Thus, I take the "6 yr old with a load manual" approach and have plenty of fun and learning without ever getting close to max pressure. I do look for pressure signs in brass for safety checks but find no reason myself to push my loads to where I purposely induce pressure signs. There is still a lot to play with within the SAAMI limits. And I plan to pass my guns on to my grandchildren to enjoy, and get as many loads as I can out of my brass.
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Old August 19, 2011, 09:39 PM   #23
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Clark,

With due respect to Prof. Stamm (which is why I noted the division isn't all that clean) but in defense of Mr. Davis, I think all he meant by objective vs. subjective was having a machine make the limit determination rather than a person. I put the lack of cleanliness in the division in because the machines can be a screw up, too, as the copper crushers manage to demonstrate with some regularity. Also, where do you put something like watching a chronograph for non-monotonic velocity increase with charge weight in that list? It's a machine giving numerical output, but it's not trying to measure peak pressure directly.

I also watch the "subjective" signs. One is a fool not to look at everything. I keep a list of them on the fist page of this thread. If you look at the last half dozen posts in the last two pages of the thread, I quote a paragraph of Davis' view and Denton Bramwell gives his, which is different reasoning. (This is just for those interested in following the arguments any further.)
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Old August 20, 2011, 09:35 AM   #24
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Modern 6.5x55 brass is normally made from the same blank stock used to make 30-06 or 308, so thickness isn't much of an issue. If you spend the money for Lapua or Norma, well it really isn't an issue.

A modern Savage will handle a case rupture event in a much safer fashion than an m96 Swedish Mauser, the real reason for folks being worried about pressure in the 6.5x55. The m96 lacks some of the safety features of the m98, chief of which is flange on the "bolt safety shroud" that directs gas away from the shooters face.

The Savage has the bolt collar that provides a relatively nice seal into the chamber area, and the chamber area has dual gas ports for venting the result of a ruptured case.

So, while I don't really care to load something so hot that it causes a case rupture, I load up to accuracy and as long as the primer looks good keep shooting that load in my rifle.

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Old August 20, 2011, 10:34 AM   #25
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Good point on accuracy being a final arbiter. I like to limit pressure to avoid burning barrels out in under a few thousand rounds, but if it isn't shooting accurately I'll never put that volume through it in the first place. If I had to choose between running on the warm side for accuracy, but eating the barrel out earlier, I'd live with that. Also, it's pretty hard for a gun to shoot accurately if it's being unduly stressed, so accuracy is a kind of safe-pressure sign in that regard.
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