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Old June 11, 2011, 04:50 PM   #1
Don P
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IN need of help 45 acp

The recipe for my reloads, 230 grain hard cast lead, 5.0 grains Titegroup. OAL 1.253-1.255 The loads are dropping roughly 6-8" at 15 yards and at 35 yards roughly 14". Gun being used is a Government size 1911.
Anyone have some insight as to what my problem may be??????
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Old June 11, 2011, 05:05 PM   #2
g.willikers
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That's the kind of drop that would be expected from an airgun.
The load data from Hodgdon says you are at max and then some, both powder and length.
So, it's not the load causing this much drop, unless it's the length.
Does the gun cycle, ok?
The only other causes, that come to mind, would be the sights, a really sloppy barrel-slide, or the shooter.
Before doing anything else, have someone else try it out.
It may not be your actual shooting, but some discrepancy between your eyes and the design of the sights.
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Old June 11, 2011, 05:14 PM   #3
Don P
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Had 2 other shooters give it a try and the same result. Same result out of my commander size 1911 and as far as the sloppy fit not enough rounds through both guns to say yep maybe worn out guns. Factory loads are not problematic with dropping so I have to say its something with the reloads.
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Old June 11, 2011, 05:16 PM   #4
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Drop?
What range are you zeroed for with what ammo?
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Old June 11, 2011, 05:41 PM   #5
Don P
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Zeroed at 25 yards with factory ammo.
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Old June 11, 2011, 05:41 PM   #6
chris in va
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I'd check that charge again. Try using a scale if you aren't already.

According to the Hodgdon site, 4.8gr is a max charge for the 230gr LRN. Perhaps it's tumbling?
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Old June 11, 2011, 05:48 PM   #7
Don P
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Paper targets are not showing signs of tumbling and all charges are weighed using a beam scale. (no batteries to go dead)
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Old June 11, 2011, 06:30 PM   #8
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The Hornady manual shows 5.2 gr as max for that load using Titegroup. So it is not the data that is underpowered.

I can't imagine a woefully underpowered charge that would drop 14" would even cycle the action properly. Any load that can reliably cycle the action should not be off more than a 2-3 inches at 25 yds.

And you say factory ammo works fine and you used it to zero for 25 yds. That means nothing is wrong with the pistol or else it would show up with factory ammo to some extent. So somthing is causing really low velocities even though there is enough pressure curve to cycle the action.

- Could be a bad batch of powder that does not burn at the proper rate. Moisture contamination?

- Contaminated primers not igniting fully? Did you handle them individually with sweaty hands or all by tray and primer tube/arm/tool?

- Really loose neck tension (I doubt it would cause this much difference, but...) Are the bullets seated firmly in the case, any looseness?
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Old June 11, 2011, 06:49 PM   #9
Don P
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As far as I can tell powder is not contaminated with moisture and for the primers I never handle them with me sweaty lunch grabbers. They are placed tray to tray when loading up the hand priming tool. loads are crimped using the Lee factory crimp die. I have read that I could bump the charge to 5.5 grains and possibly approach +P speed. I am at a loss. Both guns function fine with the reloads, just no accuracy.
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Old June 11, 2011, 06:57 PM   #10
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Don P:

I'm not trying to diagnosis your problem without first hand data. However, let me share with you what happens while the bullet is moving down the bore. If you put a laser in the pistol's bore and than looked down the sights you would find the laser beam much lower then the sights indicates. This is because the bullet is still moving during recoil and prints much higher then the sights indicate. So a slower moving bullet that is in the bore longer will print higher than a faster bullet that leaves the bore sooner. I can't under stand why your pistol is working in reverse. Check your powder and make sure that you are using the correct data and that your scale is calibrated. If all else fails check with the manufacture of your pistol.

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Old June 11, 2011, 10:07 PM   #11
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You could try a different powder, if you have one, loaded to the same aproximate velocity as you are right now see if it still drops.
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Old June 11, 2011, 10:48 PM   #12
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Who's bullets are you using and do they have one or two grease rings? Are you using gas checks?


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Old June 11, 2011, 11:11 PM   #13
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Favorite good-for-everything .45 acp load

THIS IS MY STANDARD GOOD FOR EVERYTHING LOAD SINCE THE EARLY 1980'S. HAVE SHOT THIS LOAD THROUGH MANY DIFFERENT BRANDS OF .45 AUTO PISTOLS, WITH NO PROBLEMS WITH FEEDING, EXTRACTION, OR ACCURACY. HAS BEEN USED FOR PAPER-PUNCHING, SMALL GAME HARVESTING, & IS A GOOD DEFENSE LOAD.

POWDER: 7.0 UNIQUE / 5.0 BULLSEYE
PRIMER: WIN LARGE PISTOL
BULLET: 200 GR.-- H&G #68 SWC-- HARD CAST LEAD (bull-x, friendswood, etc)
CASE: WIN, REM, FED---TRIM TO MIN LENGTH
OAL: 1.250" & TAPER CRIMP CASE MOUTH
VELOCITY: 950 TO 1025 FPS (5" BARREL)

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Old June 18, 2011, 01:53 PM   #14
Don P
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The bullets I have are .451. Most other bullet makers are stating .452.
My question is does or will the .001 make that BIG of a difference with regards to accuracy and overall performance?
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Old June 18, 2011, 02:32 PM   #15
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From what I'm reading, your loads may just be shooting lower than factory, and not "dropping" (arching)...
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Old June 19, 2011, 02:16 AM   #16
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"...Hornady manual shows 5.2 gr as max..." And Hodgdon gives 4.8 of Titegroup as max for a 230 LRN. 5.5 of Titegroup is way over max.
"...bullets I have are .451..." .451" is the normal diameter for a jacketed bullet, but 1 thou won't make that much difference. A cast bullet will expand a wee bit anyway.
"...function fine with the reloads, just no accuracy..." Most likely means your pistol just doesn't like the load. Change powders. You might want to think about changing bullets too. You don't really need a hard cast bullet for a .45.
My Colt likes 4.5 grains of Bullseye with a 230 grain cast RN. Target load.
GURU1911, please shut off your caps lock.
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Old June 19, 2011, 09:57 AM   #17
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Have you slugged your barrel? Also How much lead is in your barrel when you are done shooting?

Sounds like a bullet fit problem to me. Could be something else, though that is what it sounds like from your descriptoin. The bullets are undersized and not obturating enough and loosing velocity, and dropping low. Just my .02 cents. If you put two quarters with that you may find a soda machine that will give a can drink.
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Old June 19, 2011, 10:37 AM   #18
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I think people are way over thinking this. Different ammo has different points of impact. 14 inches and 35 yards doesn't sound any more extreme than UMC hardball compared to my reloads in my gun.

Just to illustrate my point using a ballistic calculator a Hornady 230 grain FMJ traveling at 825fps will drop 3.45 inches at 35 yards. If I reduce that to 500fps it drops 9.07 inches, a change of 5.62 inches. Well shy of 14 inches. To account for a 14 inch drop in trajectory you would have to drop the velocity to around 350-360 fps.
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Old June 19, 2011, 10:51 AM   #19
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But he's shooting a load that should be running in the 850 fps range from a full length .45. See Hodgdon's load data for it online.


Don,

If you have bad powder, you most likely have cycling problems, but not necessarily. A chronograph will settle this question for sure. Should be in the mid-800's of fps somewhere.

Shooting low: The muzzle not rising as much before the bullet exits. I'd expect maybe an inch at 15 yards from that, but not what you're seeing.

When you shoot factory ammo, are you sure the action is locking up properly? If it failed to close 100% on factory rounds, it would leave the muzzle tilted slightly up, raising their POI. That's actually possible with a short chamber throat letting jacketed factory rounds stop on the throat, whereas lead is pushed right into it. The way to check is simple. Just look at the back edge of the frame and slide with the slide in battery and see how close to flush they are. If that relationship is different with factory rounds and yours, lockup is the problem.

If the bullet is too small for the bore, you'd get a lot of leading. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing unburned powder residue, for that matter?
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Old June 19, 2011, 10:53 AM   #20
buck460XVR
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Have you chronoed the loads? This is the only real way to tell if your loads are underpowered......but I doubt of they are. I too agree it may be just a difference of POI VS POA. If your bullets are undersized that much you would be having severe leading.
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Old June 22, 2011, 06:44 AM   #21
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easy there

First weigh the bullets to confirm actual weight.
If they weigh near 230g drop your Titegroup charge to 4.6g.
Test.
Impact point raise?
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Old June 22, 2011, 07:20 AM   #22
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It may be something as simple as insuficient crimp. Make sure the taper crimp is at .469. Check that first.
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Old June 22, 2011, 07:27 AM   #23
Don P
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Severe leading is NOT happening and I am not finding unburnt powder. I have not had a chance to chrono this last batch of reloads. At 4.8 the loads were running at 785 varying 25 fps. Quite possible the gun just does not like my reloads. I know my Beretta PX4 9 mm does not like my reloads. At some point I will find a answer and hopefully be able to cure it.
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:09 AM   #24
Don P
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Quote:
First weigh the bullets to confirm actual weight.
If they weigh near 230g drop your Titegroup charge to 4.6g.
Test.
Impact point raise?
I'll give this a try. Could you explain your thoughts here? I'd like to know.

Quote:
Make sure the taper crimp is at .469. Check that first.
I'll check it out.
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:44 AM   #25
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Try backing off the charge a bit. Higher velocity loads will tend to shoot lower, all other things being equal (at closer ranges. Drop at 100 yards+ is another issue). A bit counterintuitive, I know.
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