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Old June 19, 2011, 08:54 AM   #76
Eghad
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if you have knowledge of a felony that is reconizable by a U.S. Court of Law you can be fined and/or imprisoned for failing to report it

That gives the ATF some leverage over the individual that knew about the crime.

So if some enterprising ATF agent were to get wind of this do you think NC Guy's friend would sing like a canary?

Title 18 U.S.C. Chap1 &4

Quote:
Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both
.

You do not want to be on the wrong end of the legal meatgrinder that is the federal government. It can cost you time and money you dont have.

The moral of the story is do things the right way and do not tkae an illegal shortcut when it comes to firearms.

I dont think anything will come of this internet post. Now you can see what it could cost folks for not doing the right thing and taking shortcuts.
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Old June 19, 2011, 09:02 AM   #77
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Actually, if you read the OP, he states that a friend of his is the one who did all of those things. So, how is it that he is the guilty one?
Eghad beat me to it. However, this might also prove noteworthy:

Quote:
Whoever, knowing that an offense against the United States has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact.
Except as otherwise expressly provided by any Act of Congress, an accessory after the fact shall be imprisoned not more than one-half the maximum term of imprisonment or (notwithstanding section 3571) fined not more than one-half the maximum fine prescribed for the punishment of the principal, or both; or if the principal is punishable by life imprisonment or death, the accessory shall be imprisoned not more than 15 years.
-Title 18 US Code, part 1, Chap. 1, paragraph 3

My point is this...until the law is changed, obey the law.
Don't try to think around it, evade it, or tapdance around it. The bottom line is this: Both people broke the law.
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Old June 19, 2011, 09:03 AM   #78
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Yeah, that's why he is on here, trying to garner everyone's opinion. He didn't believe it was out of line. So the "having knowledge", wouldn't necessarily apply, would it? Maybe he should call the authorities, now though, since it seems to be the consensus that it was a straw purchase, he was referring to, hypothetically....geez
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Old June 19, 2011, 10:11 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by GoOfy-FoOt
Yeah, that's why he is on here, trying to garner everyone's opinion.
I don't think he was looking to get everyone's opinion. I think he was looking to have people tell him that his opinion was correct. When that didn't transpire, he went silent. Today is June 19 and it's 11:05 a.m. where I am. The OP was last logged onto this site at 10:00 p.m. last night. But he last posted in this discussion on June 11, over a week and two screens full of discussion ago. Significantly, he has NOT responded to multiple requests to divulge who actually provided the money to buy the firearm.

IMHO he knew the transaction was tainted but hoped to be convinced otherwise.
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Old June 19, 2011, 10:46 AM   #80
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He most likely was using the "friend" scenario, to keep from incriminating himself, in the story. I can read between the lines, too. I was just contributing to the frenzy that was manifesting amongst the hair-splitters...
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Old June 20, 2011, 12:04 PM   #81
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A straw purchase definitely took place.

That said, given that the gun was eventually transferred to the final recipient via an FFL and the final recipient has now filled out a 4473, passed the NICS, etc., it seems somewhat unlikely that the authorities would be concerned about this particular transaction at this point.
I agree. The intent of the law was not to stop the transaction that occurred in this situation, even if it was a technical violation. No one in any prosecutors office or a BATFE office is going to waste their time on this.
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Old June 20, 2011, 01:21 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by SwampYankee
I agree. The intent of the law was not to stop the transaction that occurred in this situation, even if it was a technical violation. No one in any prosecutors office or a BATFE office is going to waste their time on this.
Probably true.

Which, of course, doesn't make the transaction any less illegal. [/dead horse mode]
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Old June 20, 2011, 04:01 PM   #83
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Wow, go bail out some water and move a lot of animals to cvome back and read this.

first
Quote:
As for your cousins, the cops: What kind of cops would advocate ANYONE committing perjury? Testifying in a court is sworn testimony. Making a false statement under oath is called "perjury," and that is a criminal offense all by itself.

Your cousins should resign and turn in their badges. If they would advise you to commit perjury, I have to assume that THEY would commit perjury, and there is no place in this country for cops who advocate and/or practice perjury.
They didnt instruct anyone to do anything but said IF, if the guiy said this while on the stand, now I know a passle of lawyers and they often say similiar things to their clients. Some INSTRUCT the client as to what to say exactly. So maybe all you lawyers should just resign and do some real work.

My cousins are rtetired after many years of service to the folks here. They seen stuff. Dont like lawyers at all as most cops I know....



Quote:
the gun was eventually transferred to the final recipient via an FFL and the final recipient has now filled out a 4473, passed the NICS, etc., it seems somewhat unlikely that the authorities would be concerned about this particular transaction at this point.
This is how I see it. But them lawyers act as if they live by the letter of the law. hehehehe as if.......


Quote:
Again, it's a question of intent
That would have to be proven in court.

Quote:
there was probably a way for the NY fellow to buy the gun directly and legally
Unfamiliar wit hthe hoops he had to jump thru just to be able to buy this gun meant it may not be there after the hoops were jumped thru. Is worse than CA where you live, I have some friends live up north ca, they are farmers, you been sampleing their goods? most cali folks do...


So we have here many pages of a few folks had to prove their righteousness. as if.......
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Old June 20, 2011, 05:47 PM   #84
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IF..... quite a word there. Could you give me a list of those lawyers that advise clients to perjure themselves on the stand so I can avoid them in the future? There are two sides in a criminal case the defense and the prosecution. What are the chances he is just waitng for you to perjure yourself on the witness stand? If you get caught its game over big time.
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Old June 20, 2011, 06:19 PM   #85
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Ehad:

A lot depends on who the perjury favors. If it turns out to favor the position taken by "government", who is going to prosecute him or her who lies? I suspect nobody. On that proverbial "other hand", now there we have an interesting story.
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Old June 20, 2011, 07:11 PM   #86
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Mark, just as we don't allow general cop bashing, we aren't going to allow general attorney bashing. For the same exact reasons.

You don't like what fiddletown says, I think we all get that. That doesn't allow you to get into personal attacks (and yes, that's what your last post is about). Tone it way back, please. That crack about dope smoking was over the top.

Now, if we are to go by what the O.P. wrote, then several very knowledgeable people have tried (several times) to explain, in lay terms, what a straw purchase is and why the O.P. falls into that category.

As for intent... That's also been explained how easy it would be to convince a jury of.

All of this, based only upon the O.P.

This is not about anything you have done or might do. It is about what was reported to have happened in the opening post.
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Old June 20, 2011, 09:44 PM   #87
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I know perjury doesn't favor the defendant if he gets caught lying. If Im a juror and you got caught lying under oath how can I beleive anything you say or have said? Not a good idea....

I can not see a quality lawyer telling a person to commit perjury because if you get caught and roll over on the lawyer the judge is probably going to make some bad things happen to that lawyer.
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Old June 20, 2011, 11:13 PM   #88
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I'm not sure markj was talking about perjury, per se, as much as coaching about how to word things.

Defense and prosecuting attorneys both do that.

Defense and prosecuting attorneys also coach their witnesses as far as prepping them for the types of questions likely to be asked in cross-examination.

If coached testimony is the same as perjury, I'd imagine there are an awful lot of unprosecuted perjury cases out there.

But I suspect a distinction is made.
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Old June 20, 2011, 11:17 PM   #89
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Maybe Im just a sad old timer who isn't with the hip new notion of the truth.
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Old June 20, 2011, 11:23 PM   #90
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Eghad, the law is about the law. Bringing right and wrong into it, or bringing absolute truth into it, would be great in an ideal world and an ideal legal system. However, we have neither, even if our legal system is much better than most.

Besides, here's an example:

You are attacked by a gun-wielding mugger. You are carrying, you see an opportunity, you draw and double-tap. He dies.

Your first emotional reponse is "Take that, you SOB!!!"

Now, if you are completely honest, and tell your attorney that was your first thought, do you think he should tell you to say that to the police, the DA, or in court?

If he advises against talking about your initial mental state, is he suborning perjury?
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Old June 20, 2011, 11:35 PM   #91
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I can tell you my first emotional response is not going to be anger...it will be fear. I have been in some fearful spots and my mind has done things in an ordered manner which allowed me to keep things from getting worse and coming out of it ok.

Have had this ability even as a kid and teenager.

I had a heart attack this February afterwards the wife was amazed at how calm I was and I was still able to function in an orderly manner. Panic is not your friend. Some of that is probably from my military experience. I directed he what to do whcich included some self first aid with aspirin before the ambulance arrived.

back to the scenario.

my first word will be Halt!

My first statement to the law enforcement officer if I survive or am in a state to give a statement is he drew a gun and pointed it at me and and I was afraid for my life so I defended myself with my firearm.

My attorney will hear the same statement.

which is actually what would have happened.

clear concise and to the point.
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Old June 20, 2011, 11:45 PM   #92
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Eghad, have you ever been attacked?

I have, though not with deadly force.

In my experience, anger is definitely a reaction to an unprovoked attack. So is fear - and I suspect if Glenn E Meyer were here, he'd say that fear very often leads to anger as a defensive reaction, both physical and mental.

I'm not exactly small, nor out of shape, and lucky for me the guys who swung at me weren't professional grade fighters, or even close; one ended up flat on his back, after I turned so his punch glanced off, and then hit him in the solar plexus with a palm heel.

Was I angry? You better believe it. Did I do any unnecessary damage? No. Did I mention outrage or anger to the police? No, I just said, "he attacked me, I hit him once to back him off, end of fight." Witnesses verified my account.

Should I have told the nice policeman that being jumped by some idiot really ticked me off?

I suspect if somebody came at me with a knife or gun, I'd be part scared, part angry, and part cold.

Odds are good you'd have a mix of those, too. How honest would you be?
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Old June 21, 2011, 12:02 AM   #93
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I have been in some tight spots.

I am about 5'8" inches and weighed in at about 175 lbs at the time. I was with my girlfriend when I was approached by a very large angry man for some unknown reason. My neck hurt from looking up at him. I was a little angry but I didn't let it control the situation. I stood my ground and the guy backed off. If I had let anger get the better of me there would have probably been a physical altercation. I guess he thought the little guy was crazy..lol

Someone tried to break in my little efficiency apartment one night. I got my .38 revolver down from my headboard walked over to the door. Put the gun in my left hand placed my right hand on the door and followed the door knobs movement with the guy turning it. Imagine his surprise when the door opened and I tickled his nose with the revolver. I think his flight instinct kicked in because he left some serious heel dust. Was I angry might have been a little but it was not the controlling emotion. if I was angry I probably would have taken a shot at him. I never had any more incidents at my apartment.

I was also deployed and the Sr NCO responsible for joint logistical support for a large part of Norhtern Afghanistan for several thousand people. I did not have time to get angry whenever something went wrong. Did not have time for anger nor is it a useful emotion for me.

Imagine yourself in an allied Muslim nation where you know there are folks who don't care much for Americans from intel. You are required to wear civvies off base, drive a vehicle with a liscense plate that is the equivelant of a bullseye and all you have is your Swiss Army Knife and a good pair of running shoes. You are not allowed to carry any weapons. Which means you have to do some planning and keep your head on a swivel when you are off base with a buddy and a translator. Being angry is not going to help you. prior planning and knowing the roads will.
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Old June 21, 2011, 12:10 AM   #94
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Thread Drift a-port!

Hard a-starboard, gentlemen.
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Old June 21, 2011, 12:11 AM   #95
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Aye Aye
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Old June 21, 2011, 12:56 AM   #96
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It only seems like thread drift, Al. We're really talking about intent, here, and testimony with regard to intent.

Although travels in so-called allied nations, unarmed, is a bit off... but I've BTDT, and agree.

My point over anger wasn't whether one should yell or act like a maniac, simply that regardless of how well we keep our actions and words under control when under stress, most of us will in fact feel anger, or even rage.

Did it drive our actions? In most cases, no. Was it there? In most cases, yes, but it was kept suppressed. If we don't acknowledge that, in addition to being in fear for life and limb, we were also mad as hell over being put in that position, are we perjuring ourselves by omission? Or are we doing as advised by legal experts and attorneys, and leaving out irrelevant factoids that could come back and bite us?

And if such legal advise is valid, then...

Ok, I can't help it... at risk of veer, saying "Halt!" to the BG, Eghad, I hope you get a schutz-hund trained mugger.

But again, Al, my main point is that everybody picks and chooses how they frame an account, and what facts, impressions, emotions they will include. I believe the term used for those who do not temper what they say or how they say it, often as not, is "the convicted."
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Old June 21, 2011, 01:07 AM   #97
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As for me and my posts we will stay on track.
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Old June 21, 2011, 01:18 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
...as much as coaching about how to word things.

Defense and prosecuting attorneys both do that.

Defense and prosecuting attorneys also coach their witnesses as far as prepping them for the types of questions likely to be asked in cross-examination.

If coached testimony is the same as perjury, I'd imagine there are an awful lot of unprosecuted perjury cases out there....
I think it's also important to understand that as attorneys, talking with our clients and witnesses, and preparing them to testify, is not coaching in the sense of telling them how to word things or what to say. That is unprofessional and unethical.

We do prepare clients and witnesses for their testimony by asking them the sort of questions we plan to ask and that we think the other side will be asking -- we want to know how they will respond. We want to be able to frame the questions that we will ask in ways that help tell their story effectively. We also want them to understand certain accepted ground rules: listen carefully to the question; if the witness doesn't understand the question, he may say so; the witness is only obliged to answer the question asked and doesn't have to volunteer information beyond the call of the question; the witness need only answer what he knows; if he doesn't know, that's an appropriate answer; if he doesn't remember, that's an appropriate answer; the witness is not obliged to speculate or guess.

That is how we prepare our client and our witnesses to testify. We do not tell them how to word things or what to say.
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Old June 21, 2011, 01:25 AM   #99
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That would be my thoughts on how a lawyer I would hire would act.

I know all prosecutors are not created equal but I have the feeling that the best ones dont ask questions they don't know the answers to already.

I have had to prepare folks for briefing general officers and brief a few in the military and those guys always had the answers. My advice was to never lie to them and as you said only answer with the information they want you dont have to elaborate or dig your hole deeper. As it turned out they knew what you knew already so if you lied you lost all credibility and then the beat down started. Im guessing that is what a good prosecutor would do in court.

know you wouldn't do it

If you did script a response for your client and you as the lawyer knew it was not a truthful answer and the client was found to commit perjury by doing this would you as the lawyer face any sanctions from the court?
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Old June 21, 2011, 01:27 AM   #100
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fiddletown, thanks for the clarification.

Without meaning to attack you, I would point out that in various studies, children figure out what they think adults want to hear, when questions are asked in the way you describe. These studies have been used to overturn convictions for child molestation, etc, when the defense has been able to show that the child may have simply said what they thought the interviewer wanted to hear.

If pre-schoolers can figure out, based on the questions that are asked, what people want to hear... then I have to assume adults will, too.

Even if the lawyer's intent is not to coach testimony, just asking the targeted questions is still likely to result in the defendant (or prosecution witness) adjusting the way he or she answers.
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