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Old June 1, 2011, 10:40 PM   #1
Hog Hunter
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Frangible rounds.

Is frangible ammo just for target shootin, or can it be used for SD? I mean im know it can but how Would it perform? I have always been scared of something going down in a gas station or public place and there being innocent by standards in the store getting hit with a pass through round. I know you should always know whats beyond your intended target but I think when put in that situation most ppl would just react and try to eliminate the target. I carry a 38 special everyday and im pretty sure that most of the time a belly shot or similar where the round dont hit a hard internal, its going to pass through.
I know the caliber carried can have alot to do with it but I really like my little airweight for everyday carry and dont plan on changing my carry gun.
So, im not to familiar with this frangible round. How well do you guys think it would perform on human flesh or is it just for shootin steel?? WHat would be the best round for what im lookin for?? Right now im shootin winchester xp's.
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Old June 2, 2011, 06:44 AM   #2
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Some frangible is designed to disintegrate at impact.
Some is designed for people-shooting, offering reduced penetration.

Neither, IMNSHO, is appropriate for people-shooting.

Stick with your Winchesters.
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Old June 3, 2011, 11:22 PM   #3
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frangible is like a solid point bullet, not made to expand. Not a great choice for SD. I've shot frangible at rocks and windshields and they turn to dust with no penetration. I've shot frangible through doors and wooden pallets with results similar to fmj. Generally speaking you need a hard surface like metal or glass to break up the round, it goes right through wood. Not sure about bones. I know a guy who took a deer with a 357 sig frangible.
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Old June 4, 2011, 07:11 PM   #4
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I read an article a few months ago talking about police officers using frangible rounds because they were designed to completely fragment upon impact, thus reducing the probability of overpenetration. It also stated that by the round completely fragmenting that more energy would be released on the target than that of hollow points or FMJ rounds. Since reading that article, I have been on the lookout for frangible rounds myself for SD.
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Old June 4, 2011, 11:27 PM   #5
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Frangible rounds are a poor choice as they do not penetrate deeply enough to ensure reaching vital organs. The notion that they would dump more energy into an attacker than a quality HP round is disingenuous at best, and downright wrong at worse. Until a HP creates an exit would the energy transfer is the same. Since most hallowpoints do not exit, the same amount of energy is dumped into the target.
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Old June 5, 2011, 12:36 AM   #6
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I read on the Internet that they don't work. So it must be true. I heard they just bounce of people, and just make them mad.

All I can say is, they are very light fast bullets out of a standard pressured shell.

All I can say is, whoever made any comments on these should back it up.

Last edited by 8shot357; June 5, 2011 at 04:23 PM.
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Old June 5, 2011, 01:17 AM   #7
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"RRLP ammunition may be of benefit for personnel conducting VBSS, GOPLAT, and in extremis missions in maritime environments or industrial settings with hazardous materials. Likewise, the use of frangible training ammunition is an important safety consideration for close range exercises using reactive steel targets. On the other hand, frangible training ammunition is NEVER a good choice for duty/self-defense use! Anyone recommending frangible training ammunition for duty/self-defense purposes is grossly misinformed or is ignorantly repeating specious gunrag myth and should be disregarded as a source of valid information…"

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57072

BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp
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Old June 5, 2011, 12:57 PM   #8
Sharpsdressed Man
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Has there been ANY bona fide forensic reports of frangible ammo use and results in self defense or police related shootings? If not, what are we basing the neagatives on?
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Old June 5, 2011, 02:05 PM   #9
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The are different types of frangible ammunition: that made for reduced riccochet risk for training and that marketed specifically for self-defense. Self-defense marketed frangibles are characterized by Glaser, MagSafe, and Extreme Shock. In my opinion, frangible ammunition is a poor choice for self-defense outside of certain very specific circumstances (i.e. an air marshall using a handgun inside of a commercial jet).

The problem with frangible ammo is that it typically penetrates substantially less than premium JHP ammo does. Modern premium JHP ammo is designed to penetrate to a certain depth (usually the FBI standard of 12-16") and most of it works as designed. While that depth of penetration may seem excessive on its face, it has become industry standard because it is accounting for very large attackers, shots at oblique angles, and shots through extremities or intermediate barriers. While the wounds inflicted by frangible ammunition are quite gruesome looking and undobtedly extremely painful, they may not reliably reach the vital organs of an attacker and as such cannot be relied up to quickly incapacitate a large individual, an particularly determined individual, or an individual under the influence of mind-altering chemicals.

The other issue with frangible ammo is that it's usually quite expensive. Last I looked, a package of Glaser or Magsafe ammo is roughly the same price as a box of premium JHP but usually comes in a package of 10 cartridges or less. The cost of shooting enough frangible ammo to ensure reliability, verify point of impact, and adjust sights as necessary would be prohibitively expensive for most people. Regardless of its performance, no ammo is going to do you any good if it doesn't work in your gun and/or you can't hit your target.

As far as overpenetration is concerned, while it is not an issue to be completely ignored, it's not as big a deal as some make it out to be. According to the FBI report that came out when that agency adopted the 10mm cartridge in the early 90's, overpenetration is a phenomenon that was largely exaggerated by law enforcement in order to justify the use of politically-incorrect JHP ammunition. Personally, I'm much more worried about underpenetration than I am about overpenetration. By choosing when, where, and at what angle I choose to shoot, I can go a long way towards mitigating the risk of overpenetration. It is much easier to take a step to the side or to take a kneeling or prone position prior to pulling the trigger than it is to switch your ammunition in the middle of a fight. I have at least some control over the angle of my shot, but I have no control whatsoever over the size, temperment, position, or chemical use of my opponent.
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Last edited by Webleymkv; June 5, 2011 at 02:07 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old June 5, 2011, 05:33 PM   #10
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I have shot water melon with it. They do work well but I still would take a SJHP.
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Old June 5, 2011, 05:47 PM   #11
Hog Hunter
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So basically its just for target shootin then.Thanks for the info. Like I said I have no experiance with it so I thought id ask
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Old June 5, 2011, 09:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hog Hunter
So basically its just for target shooting then.
No, not unless you really have lots of money to burn. Also, they have a different POI than normal rounds, at least in my experience.

So, since they are expensive, shoot to a different POI, and don't always perform as advertised, then they are about useless....my opinion of course.

Lots of good .38 spl rounds. My favorite is Remington Express 158g +P LHP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hog Hunter
I have always been scared of something going down in a gas station or public place and there being innocent by standards in the store getting hit with a pass through round.
Shooting in public places can be a dangerous business. Good training and confidence in yourself can keep the odds in favor of only the bad guys getting hit.

Last edited by madmag; June 5, 2011 at 09:20 PM.
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Old June 5, 2011, 09:33 PM   #13
orionengnr
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Read post #9.
The Glaser/MagSafe/etc is marketed as SD ammo, and is quite pricey--$20/$25 per six rounds. Their penetration is minimal, and their effectiveness is questionable at best.

Some other "frangible" rounds are just a compound designed to vaporize on impact, and are only good for target use.

Quote:
and there being innocent by standards
Wow.

Bottom line--use a good quality JHP for SD.
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Old June 6, 2011, 02:00 AM   #14
8shot357
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I believe everything I read.
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Old June 6, 2011, 02:24 AM   #15
HK Jake
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Quote:
I believe everything I read.
Is this all you do?

Sure, most so-called "information" on the internet is actually misinformation, but we've known for a long time that frangible ammunition sucks for self defense.

FWIW, you aren't going to find many reputable, if any..., cases of frangible ammunition being used in SD.
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Old June 6, 2011, 02:32 AM   #16
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Merc, MMA fighters routinely hit each other with 900+lbs of force. That doesn't stop the other guy from fighting. They keep coming. 450 pounds of force from a +p .45acp is not going to put a guy out of a fight. With a bullet it is about transfering that energy in to the CNS or vital organs. That requires penetration. I rather use FMJ than frangible. I prefer HPs over both. Bigger hole plus penetration.
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Old June 6, 2011, 06:50 AM   #17
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
In my opinion, frangible ammunition is a poor choice for self-defense outside of certain very specific circumstances (i.e. an air marshall using a handgun inside of a commercial jet).
And actually, last time I read about it, even the Air Marshalls were using 125gr Speer Gold Dot JHP - because even in a plane full of people and critical mechanical equipment, they felt that was the best choice.
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Old June 6, 2011, 10:08 AM   #18
madmag
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Not sure if this fits with the frangible ammo question, but I think it's worth mentioning.

I do use Hornady Critical Defense ammo. CD ammo has a polymer filler in the HP cavity to prevent being filled with material and this delays expansion until needed.

From my personal testing, and reading, this ammo does exactly as advertised. You get reliable expansion but it does not penetrate some hard barriers as well as normal HP or ball ammo. Also, it shoots and hits POI just like any other ammo. And the price is not more than other premium HP ammo.

I also find the shape (nose) of the CD ammo really enhances feeding in semi's.

Agreed, anything Speer Gold Dot is also very good. That's my other go to ammo.
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Old June 6, 2011, 04:25 PM   #19
8shot357
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Quote:
Is this all you do?

Sure, most so-called "information" on the internet is actually misinformation, but we've known for a long time that frangible ammunition sucks for self defense.

FWIW, you aren't going to find many reputable, if any..., cases of frangible ammunition being used in SD.
It's all theory man! Speculation at best! Who really knows? Enough said. Who really cares? If that's all I had, I'd sleep like a baby not worrying about it. Do you feel lucky, well... do you?
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Old June 6, 2011, 04:47 PM   #20
Don Glock
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frangible rounds are poor performers in ever test that's been done.

either they don't fragment and perform like a fmj bullet, or they do fragment and penetrate less than 9 inches.

don't waste your money on these.
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Old June 10, 2011, 02:42 AM   #21
8shot357
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Quote:
frangible rounds are poor performers in ever test that's been done.
We should just take that statement as if it holds water? Performence against what?

Quote:
either they don't fragment and perform like a fmj bullet, or they do fragment and penetrate less than 9 inches.
Is that such a bad thing? They hold up being shot out of a Semi auto!

Quote:
don't waste your money on these.
I don't know. I'm just wondering if your statement holds total truth, and you can be back it up (I read, I read, I read?).
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Old June 10, 2011, 03:00 AM   #22
Don Glock
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^^are you new to guns, or the internet?


there's this website called google. use it.
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Old June 10, 2011, 03:34 AM   #23
mete
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Frangible means fragile .I don't want to use anything fragile if I have to deal with a BG ! Use JHPs that's what they're designed for .
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Old June 10, 2011, 07:27 AM   #24
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
We should just take that statement as if it holds water? Performence against what?
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=glaser
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