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Old June 15, 2011, 03:16 PM   #1
C0untZer0
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Can the 147gr 9mm be made hotter than +P+

It seems that some of the +P+ loads are pretty hot.

I have read that the 147gr bullet doesn't leave a lot of room in the case;.

Can the 147 +P+ be made hotter than it already is, in +P+ brass?
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Old June 15, 2011, 03:36 PM   #2
Loader9
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Not if you like yer hand and yer gun. There is a point of diminished returns with most everything. The 9mm just does not have the grunt to take full advantage of these heavy weight bullets. Bullet performance will be low at best, if at all. Most will stay in profile and just punch a hole. If you need the heavier bullet weights, you need to move up in case size like a 357 mag, 10mm, etc.
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Old June 15, 2011, 03:36 PM   #3
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Nope, can't get hotter than +P+, because there's no upper limit to that designation. It just means that it's hotter than +P, but who knows by how much. You can make some hotter +P+ loads, but the hotter you go, the more risk of something failing dramatically.
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Old June 15, 2011, 03:39 PM   #4
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+p+ is already beyond SAAMI max pressure. Any cartridge "can" be pushed well beyond it's design limits. The question is whether or not your gun and the cases can handle the pressure.

+p+ is already pushing SAAMI proof pressures. I would not be interested in pushing it any further. Actually, I wouldn't be interested in pushing +p.

That's why I bought a 357sig.
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Old June 15, 2011, 03:52 PM   #5
TATER
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Not to mention you are beaten your gun to death.
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Old June 15, 2011, 04:05 PM   #6
C0untZer0
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I am going to look at a Glock this weekend, I know the Glocks are designed to handle +P.

I was hoping that the worst case scenario for loading 9mm hot would be the commercially availble +P+ like Buffalo Bore.

I guess I am worried about the previous owner fired hot ammo through it and was hoping that you couldn't make 9mm so hot that it would damage a Glock - but that's too much to ask for I guess.

Someone could always load to +P+ pressures with regular brass and blown it up I am guessing...
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Old June 15, 2011, 04:29 PM   #7
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Glocks are fine guns, I am not going to bad mouth them… I will say this, With a
stock barrel that is not fully supported, That Hott +P+ stuff is the last thing I would
put in one.
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Old June 15, 2011, 04:50 PM   #8
serf 'rett
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Quote:
Can the 147 +P+ be made hotter than it already is, in +P+ brass?
I suspect, with the use of some fast powder, the simple answer is yes - cartridges could be loaded in excess of +P+.

But looking at your second comment makes me wonder if you’re asking the right question. There appears to be some confusion of “can it be done?” versus “has it been done on the pistol you’re going to look at?”

You have posted in the reloading section, so we would assume you are asking if a cartridge can be loaded (or reloaded) to a pressure exceeding +P+. Is this your question? We collectively scratch our heads and wonder why any reasonable person would want to do such a thing?
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Old June 15, 2011, 05:50 PM   #9
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If you want something hotter than a +P+ 9mm, when you buy that Glock, ask for a Model 23.
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Old June 15, 2011, 05:58 PM   #10
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Some people should actually read what's being said before responding...

The OP doesn't WANT to load +p+, he wants to know if someone might have done it to a used gun that he might buy.

-----

The answer is easy, you could easily blow a Glock 9mm to kindling if you wanted to do it. You'd probably have to try, which means you'd have to be really, really dumb to do it by accident and downright evil to sell the gun after you did but, yes, it's entirely possible.
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Old June 16, 2011, 09:23 AM   #11
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Ah-Ha! This makes more sense now.. I just didn't spend enough time
To put his random thoughts together Thanks peetzakilla.
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Old June 16, 2011, 11:00 AM   #12
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

When I started reloading ~ 13 years ago, I almost immediately started 9mm work ups to destruction with every pistol powder and bullet I could find. I recorded the data on spread sheets.

For a long time I have shot 11 gr Power Pistol 158 gr XTP in 9mm just to show off. One or two shots makes the shooting hand hurt for hours. It takes concentration to rapid fire.

But 10 gr Power Pistol 124 gr is too hot for a Glock 19 with 48 pound triple recoil spring assembly, double magazine springs [so the chamber does not come up empty], and NY trigger [to reset as fast as the slide moves]. The cases still fly too far and the slide slams into the frame.

This is my simple math derivision of how far cases fly, that starts out with slide velocity relative to frame. Elsewhere I have a more complicated derivsions that starts out with projectile and gas momentum:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...e1c4e6d0?hl=en

9mm brass has a .160" thick web. Most 9mm pistols have thick chamber walls and .190" of feed ramp intrusion. This means they can take a huge amount of pressure above and beyond the published loads. This is completely unlike many 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45acp barrels.

What does it all mean?
Most people think that pressure is the practical limit of 9mm, when it is really recoil. Pressure can go much higher, but the practical [slide mass],[ recoil spring force] [slide travel distance] and [frame and hand mass] cause the recoil to be very limiting.
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Old June 16, 2011, 11:44 AM   #13
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48lb triple recoil spring?!

Clark, you really make me wonder sometimes!
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Old June 16, 2011, 12:09 PM   #14
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I little girl can pull 48 pounds.

I very strong man like me is required to grip the slide hard enough.
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Old June 16, 2011, 12:16 PM   #15
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I would not do it. My duty round is 147 grain and though it is slow and lacks in energy it is the most accurate round in my gun. Hits count more than ultra high velocity uber powerful misses. I'm kind of funny about that.
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Old June 18, 2011, 08:05 AM   #16
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As above you cannot load above +P+ SAMMI specs exist for +P but +P+ simply means its over +P pressures. From 1 psi/cup over all the way to kaboom they are all still +P+.

How about just getting a 40 357sig and downloading it?
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Old June 18, 2011, 08:39 AM   #17
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The +p+ refers to pressure levels, and not necessarily velocities. However, the factories do load to higher velocities with higher pressures.

But as far as hotter, yes, a fast burning powder could be loaded so hot it would blow up the gun. You could get +P+ pressures with no greater velocities or even less than standard pressure loads.

FWIW, my Kahr P9 is not rated for +P+, and before I learned that I did have some malfunctions with +P+ ammo. The factory rep told me that those pressures caused slide velocities that resulted in malfunctions. I do not get malfunctions with +P. My G26 gets the +P+ ammo I have.

Regards,
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Old June 18, 2011, 04:24 PM   #18
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

From my 2009-02-06 range report:

Quote:
Kel-Tec PF9 3.1" barrel
1) 124 gr FN Honady bullets and 10 gr Power Pistol. 1336 fps.
2) Hirtenberger +P+ 1275 fps 100 gr
How many pluses would THAT be?

It [the pressure] doesn't matter, because no shooter can shoot that load for long, because it kicks to hard.
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Old June 18, 2011, 05:16 PM   #19
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I think, from his second post, C0ountZer0 was hoping that the small powder space under the 147 grain bullet meant you could not get enough powder in to overload the gun. Alas, it often doesn't work out that way. It can, but only with the right powder choice.

Smaller confinement means it just takes less powder to make enough gas to reach a given pressure. But it also means the bullet doesn't have to move as far forward to significantly increase the volume the powder is burning in (called expansion), and thus lessening the confinement. The critical question will be whether the powder used burned faster than expansion could relieve its confinement, or slow enough to let the bullet get well under way before pressure peaked.

You won't know what powder a handloader might have worked with in a used gun that was previously owned by a stranger. But, if you can strip the thing and see no battering damage and no gas cutting, and you take a micrometer with you and check that the barrel doesn't have a bulge right in front of the chamber where it first narrows, those are pretty positive indicators pressure didn't harm the gun.

I expect Clark could come up with photos of the damage to watch out for.
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Old June 19, 2011, 12:10 AM   #20
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

With 147 gr JHP 1.159" 8.4 gr and 8.5 gr 3N37 get case bulges with the typical RP primed brass and Kel -Tec P11 barrel with .16" feed ramp intrusion.

I have the brass, that experiment was in 2002, and I don't feel like digging it out. Seen one case bulge, you seen them all. Guppy belly.
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Old June 19, 2011, 02:01 AM   #21
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There is no +P+ brass. The brass is the same as any other brass. The +P+ is just stamped on the case so the union plugs in the factory don't mix +P+ ammo with regular ammo or +P ammo when it's being packaged. You can over load any brass.
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Old June 22, 2011, 06:50 AM   #22
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all very factual

Just to clarify, in the 9x19 cartridge SAAMI's +P+ designation means there is no set pressure for cartridges so designated.
Does NOT automatically mean the cartridge is at greater pressure than standard or +P designated ammo, just that the ammo has NO pressure limit as per SAAMI.

So I can manufacture +P+-designated 9mm, and it can be at any old pressure. Any....
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Old June 23, 2011, 01:42 AM   #23
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Are you talking about the 38 Super?

Foolishly? Yes. Wisely? No.

Look up 38 Super or 9x25 Dillon cartridges. Those are what you want. Or a Coonan .357. The .357 Sig and the 9x21 will have the same bullet weight/length/size problems as the 9x19 mm.

9xx19 and 9mm Parabellum) were simply not intended for the kinds of pressures the loads and bullet weights you contemplate would generate. Longer bullets present feeding problems (longer OAL) unless you seat them deep, which raise pressures, sometimes dangerously.

You could build such a gun. But manufacturers today have designed their guns for standard SAAMI pressures.

For an interesting comparison, look up the differences between 45ACP, 45ACP+P and 45 Super (which uses the same case dimensions as the 45 ACP, but requires a stronger recoil spring and DEFINITELY a stronger chamber).

What you are describing is tantamount to a 9mm Super, similar to a 45 Super. A regular sized case intended for above SAAMI pressures, therefore requiring a stronger chamber, recoil spring and probably beefed-up frame, just as the 45 Super does.

I have gone really overboard in the description it is because I am concerned about the safety of going beyond the design parameters of your hardware.


Generally speaking, a bad idea. But intriguing. Are you trying to find a loading that will make major rating in a 9x19 platform?

Good luck,

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Old June 23, 2011, 05:43 PM   #24
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I don't know what your goal is, but if you switch from a 9x19 case to a necked down 10mm case, you can exceed the 9mm +P+ fairly safely. Glock makes a service size and a compact size pistol that can be easily converted.
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Old June 24, 2011, 12:48 PM   #25
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9x19mm can safely make way more momentum than 9x25, 38 Super, or even 10mm can take in conventional pistols.

With a 4 pound Desert Eagle converted to 9x19, and HEAVY recoil spring, the pressure could become an issue in work up, before the recoil became the issue that stops the work up.

But those 9x25, 38 Super, and or even 10mm pistols being considered have probably no more than 1.5 pounds of slide and barrel and 20 pound of recoil spring.

That slide mass and recoil spring force cannot contain 9mm +P+++++++ let alone 9mm +P+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.

What does it all mean?
Most people think that 9mm work ups are limited by pressure, but they are in fact limited by recoil.
That mistake is all over the internet, because posters imagine it, and do not do the experiments and/or calculations to know the truth.
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