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Old June 3, 2011, 02:56 AM   #1
HiBC
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AR kaboom,a case for crimping

Doggone.A friend just sent me a PDF of an M-4 type Rock River that got pretty well wrecked at a training excersize in El Paso.I am quite mediocre with a computer and I am not having luck with copying and pasting here.The upper was opened up,part of the bolt face eroded away,the mag blown out,the carrier damaged,and the bbl extension split.The shooter was OK.It was Remington factory ammo.The investigation concluded the cause was the bullet was forced back in the case during feeding.
Myself,I have not been an advocate of crimping.My rationale,a proper feeding rifle,good neck tension,it should be unnecessary.I also have believed any deformation of the bullet is undesirable.Up till now,I have been in the "no crimp"camp.
I am thinking it is worth experimenting with the Lee collet crimp die.
I have to accept one mediocre magazine could provide the Murphy factor to hiccup the feed enough to deep seat a bullet.This rifle was wrecked,someone could have been hurt.I am not too stubborn or old to learn something .
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Old June 3, 2011, 04:49 AM   #2
Tim R
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I have not crimped a single SMK for my match service rifles for K's of rounds. Was This a new round or a reloaded round? As careful as we maybe worn out brass will not have enough neck tention to hold a bullet from set back. In some cases adding a crimp can make it worse. I don't pick up range brass unless I know for sure it's once fired. If brass starts sizing too easy it's another reason to throw it into the recycle bin.
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Old June 3, 2011, 07:31 AM   #3
cracked butt
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hmmm.
I never crimp either.
I've seen plenty of guys at matches who have had a problem with a rifle, ejected a live round, having the live round hit the pavement setting the bullet back somewhat, then rechambering it and firing it without a problem.
With the amount of freebore in an M4 carbine, and the fact that the load density of the powder in the case is very high in the .223, I would guess that the 'bullet setback' theory is the most convenient picked, but probably not likely. Bullet setback is far more dangerous in handguns than in AR-15s.

Was the ammo really remington factory ammo or might it have been sold by a lower tier 'remanufacturer?'


edit: found this: http://www.remington.com/pages/news-...llowPoint.aspx
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Old June 3, 2011, 09:21 AM   #4
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I've seen the pdf with all the pics, and the rather sketchy write up that seems to blame Remington ammo. I'm calling BS on this one as this so called 'investigation' sorely lacks.
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Old June 3, 2011, 10:45 AM   #5
cracked butt
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http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=535662

I wonder if this is the same rifle. This thread/site states that winchester ammo was being used?

Any links to the PDF article?
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Old June 3, 2011, 11:17 AM   #6
HiBC
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I am glad Sundog saw the pdf.It says it was Remington factory load,62 gr match HP.Agreed with Sundog,it does look like a whole lot of wreckage for a bullet setback.Given some safety margin in loading,I would expect not much more than warning signs visible in the brass.
So,agreed,it may very well be something else is going on,like powder contamination.
I have loaded for AR's since about 1970,off and on.I have never applied a crimp.I have had no trouble.
I have also had a gentleman with a whole lot of experience on the team improving the AR system tell me I really should crimp,for this very reason.

I looked at this write up with my mind open to learning something,even if my beard is white.Thought I would pass it on for comment.Jump to your own conclusions.
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Old June 3, 2011, 11:44 AM   #7
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I did some searching.This case is written up on AR-15.com in a thread titled Catastrophic Failure posted 5/26.
I would say "Inconclusive"
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Old June 3, 2011, 01:25 PM   #8
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Misfeeds will bend crimped rounds.

I was unable to find the specific thread on AR15.com, but found other AR blowups.

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Old June 3, 2011, 01:40 PM   #9
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I think this explains it, from the Remington.com Safety web page:

Quote:
Remington has determined that four (4) Lot Numbers of its .223 Remington 62 Gr Hollow Point (Match) Ammunition may have been improperly loaded.
http://remington.com/pages/news-and-...llowPoint.aspx

Since they say it is "improper loading" of the cartridges, I suspect the wrong powder or powder amount was loaded. Way over pressure somehow.
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Old June 3, 2011, 01:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Anything made by man can be unmade by man.
I don't believe there was any suggestion of supernatural involvement.

Yes, it seems excessive for bullet setback.

The warning from Winchester was for just 6 lots of their 64 gr. Power Point loaded .223 ammo that had incorrect amounts of propellant that might result in the rifle being rendered inoperable. I didn't find the warning through the link in the pdf, but through Google since the pdf link was dead.
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=6937
http://wethearmed.com/index.php?topic=13042.0

So not a crimp or setback issue but a propellant issue.

edit...
And since I was writing this and got hungry, I went and got a sandwich, finished, and saw NWPilgrim had cleared up things already.
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Old June 3, 2011, 11:00 PM   #11
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I don't usually crimp rifle bullets w/o crimping cannelures, but you have to respect that the military crimps all they make for a reason, and all their bullets are cannelured models. Use in semi-autos, Auto loaders, in extremes situations such as war, are all reasons they do it and maybe they have more reasons. They have obviously seen negative results of NOT crimping or they wouldn't do it.

Therefore.....if one is loading a major stash for a SHTF rainy day, month, year...I say crimp. Otherwise, if it's for practice or competition, at the range or in the field shooting varmints, I'm not going to worry a whole lot about it, as long as bullet/case friction is the best I can make it.

I should add......I take very good care of my ammo.....kid gloves....I don't toss 1000 rounds in a bucket. If you do, I mean no offense, as I'm for freedom and all that it implies! You may even call me a neat freak if you wish...I take no offense either!

Last edited by GWS; June 3, 2011 at 11:09 PM.
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