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Old June 1, 2011, 05:58 PM   #1
grayrock8@yahoo.com
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R.Ph fired for legally carrying

Anybody hear about a pharmacist for the pharmacy America trusts getting fired? He supposedly was involved in a robbery attempt somewhere up north- I guess his company doesn't trust him anymore.
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Old June 1, 2011, 06:46 PM   #2
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This one? :

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/fired...ry?id=13705438

from the news article:

Quote:
In Benton Township, Michigan, two armed robbers wearing masks burst into a near-deserted Walgreens at 4:30 a.m. To pharmacist Jeremy Hoven, it was a prescription for trouble. So he filled it with hot lead.
It'll be interesting to see how this incident plays out in the courts, if and when he decides to sue...
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Old June 1, 2011, 06:56 PM   #3
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That would be the one. I think I read in a different account how the same store had been robbed recently and the employees had asked for more security measures to be taken- and none had. As the saying goes- when seconds count the police are only minutes away. Hope it works out for him.
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Old June 1, 2011, 07:19 PM   #4
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He'll be hard pressed to get his job back. Assuming an "at will" employment state, if he violated the rules for employees (many places, if not most, have a "no weapons" policy), he was terminated for doing exactly that. That it was to prevent a robbery is immaterial; he broke the rules.

Unless and until penalties are levied upon companies that choose to leave employees defenseless and then provide zero security, this isn't likely to change.
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Old June 1, 2011, 07:52 PM   #5
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My Wife works for a major pharmacy chain. She sometimes opens her store at 0:dark30, and sometimes close at ten, or eleven at night. Then she'll take the days reciepts to the night drop at the bank. Her chain has a strict NO FIREARMS POLICY. And of course she follows company policy. Except when she carries. We both figure this... It's more likely that you will be forgiven, than you will be given permission. And she must be alive to get terminated.

I'd support this guy in any way I could. IMO he did what was right for his family and himself. His employer is way down on that list. Jobs come and go you only get one life.
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:08 PM   #6
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In one of the stories I read, it said the store (Walgreens) is following OSHA policy in prohibiting guns.

Never quite heard of that one before, but I guess anything is possible.
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:22 PM   #7
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Well I guess the cat is out of the bag about Walgreens. I guess the robbers in Michigan will know that Walgreens has established a system to get them in and out of the store with the money fast!
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:24 PM   #8
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It's a lot easier to replace your job than your life.
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:36 PM   #9
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One of my family members is a pharmacist. One of his previous employers (a "big box store") had an "instant termination" policy for carrying a firearm on store property. And, the employee handbook threatened legal action, if the firearm was used on company property (even if preventing injury to employees or self). They claimed that store security (actually pretty good, and armed) was more than enough. ....But didn't escort anyone through the pitch black parking lot, to the distant employee parking area, in a bad part of town, after closing; even if they were making the night deposits at the bank (no armored car service in that area ).

After having to draw his weapon to stop a cashier from being harmed during a robbery, the store manager chose to "look the other way" on the no firearms policy. Some similar incidents around the country have gotten that company to change their policy to something more akin to "don't ask, don't tell; if you use it, we'll sue".
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:45 PM   #10
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I used to work in Benton Harbor Michigan... I would never set foot in there without being armed.

That place makes Chicago look welcoming...
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Old June 1, 2011, 09:00 PM   #11
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A lot of companies have a "total cooperation" policy when it comes to robberies.

Don't look them in the eyes. No sudden movements. Tell them what you are doing. "Yes sir, Mr Robber- may I carry these drugs out for you? Would you like all the money or just the paper? Have a nice day. Come back, now, y'hear?"
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Old June 1, 2011, 10:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
A lot of companies have a "total cooperation" policy when it comes to robberies.
If you don't work for yourself (and can therefore make your own rules regarding firearms), then the best thing you can do is to hand the junk over. It isn't yours, it isn't your money. No point in engaging in violence over something that isn't yours. Drawing your own gun isn't a magic end to the robbery and can easily be what takes the robber's own threat and turn it into action on his part. Not a worthwhile gamble for something that isn't yours.

Still, for the companies to disarm employees and then not provide security is willfully disregarding the well being of those who work for you.


My wife is a pharmacist, and there's a reason she didn't go to Walgreens... they're pretty well known for treating employees poorly. They pay well, but starting pharmacists get the night shifts at the 24 hour pharmacies (which often end up in iffy neighborhoods). Better to work at some other store that closes at a decent hour.
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Old June 1, 2011, 10:38 PM   #13
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You know its funny because I have seen plenty of video on TV where the employee doesnt do anything but comply with the thief and still gets murdered.....

Some people dont get it, crimes like this arent just about moeny they are at times about power and you can comply all the way to the grave, even if the store isnt yours..

For me so long as I am within the law Im going to do my best to prevent the BG from putting me in the grave or at the minimum take some bad guys as company... I find no honor in loosening bowels in some corner... No offense but thats how I see it..
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Old June 1, 2011, 11:01 PM   #14
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Job or no job he has still got his life. He done what he though was right and in the end he done the right thing. There are more jobs out there.
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Old June 1, 2011, 11:26 PM   #15
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I would venture a guess that any crook that robs a pharmacy is after one thing and one thing only: drugs, and perhaps any loose money lying around. But it is also a good guess that these are hopped up junkies that have no value to life. If we knew for sure that they would take the drugs/money and just leave, then let them have it. But hop heads are unpredictable and may just indiscriminately shoot someone for the kick of it.

In this particular instance, it is probably store policy for employees not to have guns because of the liability of collateral damage should a bystander/customer become shot or killed by a gunshot from the pharmacist will most likely open up a deep pocket for litigation and civil suits.

If I were the pharmacist, I would have done exactly what he had done. My job is not worth my life. I can always search out another job while my wife and family have a husband, father, and the ability to maintain the family unit. Isn't this the basis for why we all carry?
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Old June 1, 2011, 11:32 PM   #16
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45Gunner has it exactly. It's a calculus between the liability of allowing employees to have firearms and the potential legal bills, and the cost of an employee.
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Old June 2, 2011, 12:36 AM   #17
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Walgreens does in fact have a no firearms policy in store or in parking lot. Immediate termination is clearly stated.

Also, previous statements about "hand over whatever they want" is correct. That is the current policy at all the chains to my knowledge.

I have not worked in the retail setting for some time but this was one of the reasons I don't. It can be pretty lonely when you're the only one there at 0300 in "sporting" areas.

Like most policies I think these were devised by the insurance actuaries wherein the cost of whatever drugs (thousands) means little to a company of billions. Much cheaper than what harm an armed employee could do generating millions-magnitude lawsuits defending themselves.

It is an interesting situation, balancing the self-defense rights of the employee with company liability + a unique situation where people will acquire something they really want with force.

BTW, your average chain store doesn't have that much lying around to make robbery worth it.

Last edited by Mr X; June 2, 2011 at 12:56 AM.
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Old June 2, 2011, 09:09 AM   #18
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My grandfather used to call these places that were open 24 hours a "Stop and Rob."

I still have to agree the pharmacist did the right thing. I hope he has no problem getting another job.
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Old June 2, 2011, 09:27 AM   #19
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FWIW, here's my take: If your job has a "no firearms" policy, the simple question that you have to ask yourself is this: "Would I rather be caught with it, or without it?"
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Old June 2, 2011, 09:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
I have not worked in the retail setting for some time but this was one of the reasons I don't. It can be pretty lonely when you're the only one there at 0300 in "sporting" areas.
That's one of the pluses to being a pharmacist at a big box store (as in Walmart, Target, grocery stores, etc., not the neighborhood small convenience pharmacies). They're a harder target for robbery; not that they won't get robbed, but that you simply can't and won't get all the witnesses. If you shoot somebody (be it the pharmacist or a tech), there's a large number of other folks in the store who are potential witnesses that you cannot get. Furthermore, the pharmacy may be a bit of a hike from the door (not always, but sometimes)... that means there's no such thing as a quick getaway.

It forces a bit more introspection on the part of the criminal, and as always when dealing with criminals, the harder the nut you are to crack, the more likely they'll go find an easier mark.

I'm not saying that companies are right in this kind of policy, I'm just saying that there's more to this equation than just giving the pharmacist a weapon.
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Old June 2, 2011, 12:48 PM   #21
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I guess his company doesn't trust him anymore.
And why would you trust an employee who has disregarded company policy? Given that employment depends on abiding by the rules and an employee demonstrates that s/he is unwilling to abide by the rules to which the employee agreed as a pard of the condition for employment, then they cannot be trusted.

Quote:
Well I guess the cat is out of the bag about Walgreens. I guess the robbers in Michigan will know that Walgreens has established a system to get them in and out of the store with the money fast!
Um no. This is no more true than concealed carry within a state lowers crime rates. Thusfar when chains have come out with this information, there have not been rashes of robberies against their employees.

Quote:
If I were the pharmacist, I would have done exactly what he had done. My job is not worth my life. I can always search out another job while my wife and family have a husband, father, and the ability to maintain the family unit. Isn't this the basis for why we all carry?
This is a healthy attitude. If you are going to carry and do so against company rules, then hold your chin up high when you get fired, if you get fired, for being true to yourself. Don't pull this whiny crap about crying to a lower about being fired unjustly. If the condition for employment was unjust, then either the guy should have worked to change the policy, which if he is like most other example, is something he never considered doing. The security of keeping his job wasn't important to him until he lost it.
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Old June 2, 2011, 12:58 PM   #22
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Tis a sticky question

When do the actions of the company/entity in question begin to build a case of culpability or liability if an employee is harmed in an event such as a robbery?

You could do an entire law school semester on that topic and still have no clear answer.

So, does the policy create that liability when the reasonable company would be expected to know the risks of its business? E.g. not providing for the safety of pharmacy employees where there is a recognized risk of robbery? Is the answer the enclosed glass box of some banks and gas stations? Hardly the open atmosphere national pharmacies would like. Fort Drug just isn't as welcoming...

If employees can't have immediate means of self defense - then what?

The give-it-away policies seem to hang their argument on the notion of a rational perpetrator - is that a reasonable expectation RE liability?

Is there a "civil right" to expect safety from these situations in the workplace, especially from a national company?

I'd like to hear some thoughts on those since my opinion in this matter is biased.
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Old June 2, 2011, 03:56 PM   #23
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double naught spy, you say there is no increase in robberies of the stores that acknowledge they have a no firearms policy???? really???

Then why have 10 of the last 10 pharmacy robberies in the Spokane, WA area, as reported on the TV new...ALL BEEN WALGREENS??????? (not all the same stores, but all have been Walgreens)
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Old June 2, 2011, 04:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
One of my family members is a pharmacist. One of his previous employers (a "big box store") had an "instant termination" policy for carrying a firearm on store property. And, the employee handbook threatened legal action, if the firearm was used on company property (even if preventing injury to employees or self). They claimed that store security (actually pretty good, and armed) was more than enough. ....But didn't escort anyone through the pitch black parking lot, to the distant employee parking area, in a bad part of town
Quote:
A lot of companies have a "total cooperation" policy when it comes to robberies.
Quote:
Still, for the companies to disarm employees and then not provide security is willfully disregarding the well being of those who work for you.
Quote:
Walgreens does in fact have a no firearms policy in store or in parking lot. Immediate termination is clearly stated.
What is being totally ignored is the personality of the Corporation. Corporations have all the behaviors of human psychopaths. A Corporation exists solely to maximize profit. Profit now, Not profit later. Corporations view their employees (the world in fact) as disposable in the attainment of their goals, don’t have a conscience, are great manipulators. They will lie to your face without shame. You can only have a master/slave relationship with a psychopath, they consider compromise a weakness.
http://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Pa.../dp/0743247442

So, lets say you the employee pull a gun and shoot a Goblin. Right or wrong there is the potential for a lawsuit. You are an agent for the Corporation and now the Corporation is liable. Lawsuits cost money, and since all Goblins have grieving relatives, any settlement will be big. Payouts decrease profits.

So the Corporation teaches you to be passive, non resisting, will fire your butt if you do anything to hurt a Goblin, even if your survival is at stake. All you have to do is Google this and you will find plenty of times where employees saved their lives through deadly force and were fired.

Why? Because it is the low cost solution. If a Goblin kills you, it is a law enforcement issue. The Corporation does not owe any one anything. They don’t even owe your family burial costs. They will send the Janitors in, clean off the blood and filth, and go back to making profits.

Because that is what they do and that is what they are. It is immoral, but hey, they are psychopaths, what else did you expect?
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Old June 2, 2011, 04:39 PM   #25
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I think that if a corporation has rules that specificaly benefits an assailants crime against another person, the corporation should be held as an accessory. Its the same as an accomplice tying your hands imo.
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