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Old June 2, 2011, 08:22 PM   #26
jd3020
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Ok well after about fifteen min of taking a dryer sheet to the bottom of the powder bottle and and then doing the same to my mec #30 powder bushing the first load drop was 16.4 then the second was 16.8 and then from then on it varied from 16.6 to 16.8 with one instance being a 17.8 but I got that reading after I bumped my scale and got it out of wack. So I think it's safe to say my 30 bushing is throwing 16.6-16.8 grains. Now with this finding I might do that same thing with my 31 bushing and see if it dosent get back to that 17-17.2 range
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Old June 2, 2011, 11:14 PM   #27
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I lump shotshell primers in two groups: Standard (Win, Rem & CCI) primers which I load indiscriminately (but, mostly Wins) and Federal 209As. I've not used Chedites, but if they are oversized, I'd not go back to smaller ones to avoid further damage to your gun. Yes, prolonged use of reloads will damage you gun if you're a high volume shooter (been there, done that). It's one of shootings dirty little secrets. Don't add to the damage by giving blow-by an easier path with loose primers.
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Old June 3, 2011, 12:15 AM   #28
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JD3020, Might I ask what part of the state you are in?
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Old June 3, 2011, 09:27 AM   #29
jd3020
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im in northwest missouri
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Old June 3, 2011, 10:58 AM   #30
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0.2 variation is a lot better ...so I'm suspecting you did have some static issues. What is the minimum on the powder drop say for 1150 fps ....and the max say at 1250 fps ...and where does your goal drop fit into that range ?

As an example Hodgdon Clays ( 1 oz loads, REM STS hulls, WAA12SL wad, and WIN 209 primers - has a load at 15.7gr for 1125 fps ...my target load at 18.4gr for 1235 fps and a 19.8 gr for 1290 fps ....so I'm well within the high and low tolerance for the powder I choose to use.
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Old June 3, 2011, 02:06 PM   #31
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ok according to alliants web site the rem. sts hulls at 1150 fps is 16.5 grains, 1200 fps is 17.8, 1250 fps is 18.7and 1310 fps is 18.7 and that data is using rem 209 primers and cb1100-12 wads. As far as the win 209 primer it gives a different wad with that one so the charge is different
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Old June 3, 2011, 02:25 PM   #32
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Ok, so:
16.5 is the low end at 1150 fps
17.8gr at 1200 fps
18.7gr at 1250 fps - at the high end.

But what I think is interesting is between 1150 fps and 1200 fps / the difference of 50 fps ..requires 1.3 grains of powder. At the upper end the 50 fps between 1200 and 1250 fps only requires 0.9 grain....so that tells you something about how much powder it takes to get a good burn ...and consistent velocity.

I'd probably suggest you start with a box of test shells: ( mark the bags / use sandwich bags or something )...

5 shells in the 16.5 range ...at 1150 fps.
5 shells in the 1200 fps shell.
5 shells in the 1250 fps shell.

and interpolating a little - some at 18.2gr for a shell that is around 1225 fps.

Run a bore snake thru the gun so its clean - shoot the 5 shells ...and check the bore to see how dirty it is. After you shoot 5 - run the bore snake thru the bore again and clean it out ...and note the difference. My hunch is, at the low end, you might find its pretty dirty with a lot of unburnt powder or junk in the bore. At the upper end, I suspect you'll find its cleaner. Personally, I like it pretty clean.

Then it comes down to recoil ...I don't know what gun you're shooting and if its a gas operated semi-auto it might not matter...but if its a fixed breech gun like a pump or an Over Under ...the difference in recoil between the 1150 fps ...and the 1250 fps is about 15%( if its a 7 1/2 lb gun ) ...and 15% is a lot, and its cumulative ...so as the day goes on, it'll tire you out a little...

Powder only makes up 2 or 3 cents of the cost of a $ 0.15 shell ..so using less powder, will save you a little money, but not a lot .....most of picking a load is how clean it is / what velocity you like to shoot / and how the recoil feels. Personally, I tend to load all of my 1 oz loads at around 1225 fps ...and almost exclusively with 8's. A shell of 1225 fps is more than I need for Skeet, but its fine for Trap ( even continental, or handicapped distances ) and its a good sporting clays load. At times in my shooting career - I've had hot ones, and mid range shells, and slower shells...but now I just shoot one 12ga shell for everything ...and don't worry about mixing them up / getting them in the wrong bag when I empty my vest, etc ....

and get out and have some fun with this stuff ....you're loading your own shells now man ....welcome to our end of the hobby !!

Last edited by BigJimP; June 3, 2011 at 02:34 PM.
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Old June 3, 2011, 02:39 PM   #33
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Remember there are 7000 grains of powder in a lb ....so at these load ranges...between 16.5 gr and 18.7 gr ( assuming you don't spill anything ) you'll get around 15 - 17 boxes of shells... so figure on getting 15 ...( I always seemed to spill a little when I was first lerning ) ...
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Old June 3, 2011, 05:11 PM   #34
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i have 3 pump shot guns and 1 semi auto 2 pumps are old like jc pennys guns my newest pump is a mossburg 835 ulti mag turkey gun and my semi auto is a winchester 1400 ranger. i would say my winchester and my mossburg are my guns i shoot the most.
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Old June 3, 2011, 05:25 PM   #35
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Most of those guns will be 7.5 lb or maybe 8 lb guns ...so my estimate for recoil is probably about right.

Like I said - you may not be able to tell the difference in recoil if you're shooting the semi-auto ...but cleanliness of the loads in a gas operated semi-auto is even a bigger deal than in a pump gun.

When you get ready to buy powder again ...consider Hodgdon Clays..for 12ga loads if its available in your area.
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Old June 3, 2011, 06:57 PM   #36
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Jim, 10X has a recoil calculator where you can put in the data and calculate the ACTUAL. As you are aware, perceived is something different.

http://www.10xshooters.com/calculato...Calculator.htm

A typical wad is 40 grains.
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Old June 3, 2011, 08:44 PM   #37
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Ok tonight I went down to my reloader and took my #30 bushing out to check my powder charge on my 31 bushing and when I took the charge bar out I noticed that inside of the bushing were flakes of powder which is telling me that not all of it is going from the bottle to the hull. But I think this promo powder is still a joke. The first 4 charges in my 31 bushing were only 17 grains. Now the 30 bushing was. 16.6-16.8. After running a few more charges through the bushing it came up to 17.8 and then about every third or fourth one was that same number with the ones in the middle jumping from 17.5 to 17.3 to 17.6 and any thing in between never any thing constant. Obviously the dryer sheet has put an oily film on the bushing making the powder stick but mind you I didnt do the dryer sheet trick with my bushing tonight. I think I'm coming to the conclusion promo powder even tho being cheaper is probably not the way to go.
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Old June 3, 2011, 09:11 PM   #38
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Here is a picture of the shells I am using. They are Remington sport loads the metal base is short and it looks like the hull is ribbed but it's actually smooth with an 8 fold crimp on the top. Now for the second part of this post when I look in my Lyman 5th edition shotshell reloading book under Remington premier sts plastic cases for clays powder it gives me one load data for clays 17.0 grains a win 209 primer which I think I can sub for my cheddite and then It calls for the win waa12sl wad which my claybuster wad will sub for but that is the only data it gives me for what I would use if I do switch to clays powder. Does it really matter what wad is being used. Does the wad make a difference on the velocity and pressure and every thing like that?

shell.jpg

Last edited by jd3020; June 4, 2011 at 07:09 AM.
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Old June 3, 2011, 11:29 PM   #39
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There two types of wads, the hull's base wad (plastic or paper) and the component wad column (made up of the over powder wad, cushion and the shot cup). Yes, variations in the construction of the base wad and/or the over-powder wad can make a significant difference in pressure and velocity. Use the wad indicated in the recipe for the specific hull, or a replacement for that specific wad column. The package will have the wad number. Different numbered wads may look remarkable similar. Substituting hulls with different base wads or substituting (Federal-type for Winchester-type or Remington-type) wad columns will typically produce erratic results and should be avoided.
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Old June 4, 2011, 10:51 AM   #40
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Hey Zippy, I usually agree with what you post. You statement about using reloads causing undue wear on your gun is bogus. My oldest 77 model BT99 has over 170,000 rounds through it and almost all were reloads. I replaced the springs once about 5 years ago even though there were no malfunctions. I just don't know how you come to that conclusion.
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Old June 4, 2011, 12:52 PM   #41
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Quote:
Obviously the dryer sheet has put an oily film on the bushing
Not quite - a dryer sheet is nothing more than a cheap woven polyester piece of fabric with a light coating of wax that dissipates in the dryer when heat is applied - if anything, it would make it slicker.

Maybe you have more of a humidity problem than you think, but I can tell you that using the red plastic PC powder baffle on all of my MECs made all the difference - the powder drops are consistent every single drop
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Old June 4, 2011, 04:19 PM   #42
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The dryer sheets shouldn't make it worse ...they should cut the static down ..maybe try and wipe the bottle down again / but you're still getting too much variation to suit me. So something is still going on ....

Look at the Hodgdon website - they have a lot more loads using Clays and 1oz loads / but I gave you the load specs right off the website - about 12 responses up for 1125 fps - 1290 fps.

" As an example Hodgdon Clays ( 1 oz loads, REM STS hulls, WAA12SL wad, and WIN 209 primers - has a load at 15.7gr for 1125 fps ...the recipe I use: for my target loads at 18.4gr for 1235 fps and a 19.8 gr for 1290 fps ....so I'm well within the high and low tolerance for the powder I choose to use. "

The hulls you're using are fine - they use the same recipe as Rem STS hulls - low brass is common on target shells ( its all I use ). The only thing you'll find on those hulls - is they're thin - so they will start cracking after 5 or 6 reloads vs STS or Nitro hulls will go 20+ reloads.../ but there is no reason not to use the hulls you have.

As long as you are using a substitute for the WAA12SL wad you're fine - a lot of guys use claybuster wads ...and they're fine / you just need the one that matches the ounces of shot you've picked.

yes, you can substitue the chedite primers for Win 209 primers.

Talk to a local buddy / maybe they can give you a hand --- loan you 1/2 lb of Hodgdon Clays or something for you to test.../ but don't give up.
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Old June 4, 2011, 06:23 PM   #43
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oletymer,
Just because you've not experienced something doesn't mean it can't happen. My primary skeet gun's breech face has erosion rings, the same size as primers, around the firing pins and the firing pin holes are enlarged. I'd tried to get some pics for you, but they come out too dark without the flash or overly bright with the flash -- my camera isn't happy making close-ups.

Big Jim questioned me about the same thing right I posted my remark. Here's an extract of my reply: When I had my Mirage last serviced, the Perazzi factory tech took one look at my gun and said, "You've been shooting reloads, haven't you?"

Haven't you had old hulls that have black around the primer pockets? It's from blow-by. I load with Double-A hulls in four gauges (the gun is tubed) and some Fed papers in 12-ga. If your BT-99, with all those rounds, shows no signs of breech face erosion, I'd like to know what hulls you load with.

Perhaps Browning (Big Jim shoots B-guns, too) uses a more robust alloy than Perazzi. The problem is common enough that Perazzi has a method of renewing the breech face. If the problem doesn't exist, perhaps I can send you the bill when I eventually get mine renewed.
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Old June 6, 2011, 11:25 AM   #44
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Any idea how many shells you had thru that gun Zippy - when you found the problem / or how many yrs you had it at that point ??

As a note ... a few yrs ago, when a lot of guys were shifting to Chedite primers because we had trouble getting Remington and Winchester 209's ...there were some eroded and pitted firing pins showing up in a lot of Brownings. There was a lot of discussion about it on some of the more dedicated to clay target shooting forums ...and I don't know that there was ever a consensus, but it seemed to be related to Chedie primers ( corrosive, temperature, etc ...who knows)....

I currently shoot several Brownng O/U's ( and have shot the same 8 or 9 guns for the last 13 yrs or so ) and have not used a lot of Chedite primers -- and many of my primary guns are well over 100,000 shells with no firing pin corrosion issues ( primarily Win and Rem 209 primers ) in 12ga, 20ga and 28ga ( I shoot a .410 Browning O/U as well -- but despite the fact that the gun is probably 10 yrs old I don't have over 5,000 shells thru it probably )...

Last edited by BigJimP; June 6, 2011 at 11:31 AM.
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Old June 6, 2011, 02:32 PM   #45
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Jim, I'm guessing about 15-years and about 250,000 rounds.
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Old June 6, 2011, 02:46 PM   #46
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Ok,

I guess I'm not confident a Browning or a Beretta wouldn't show the same issues you found at 250,000 shells.....on your Perazzi .../maybe worse...I don't know ??

But I'm still having a hard time quantifying how much of that wear on the breech face would be from reloads vs factory shells. I guess the only way we'd ever know would be to have two guns ...one fired exclusively with factory shells and one exclusively with reloads ...so we probably just have to take the word of your Perazzi service center rep / on what he says caused the issue.

I wonder if the breech faces on some guns are hardened to a different level than others ...or machined to tighter tolerances ...and how all that fits into the equation / if it even does. I think I may have napped during some of those strength of materials classes ...but if its "too hard" ---that's bad too, I would think ...maybe causing it to pit more ...but I'm out of my league now !!
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Old June 6, 2011, 03:02 PM   #47
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Jim, I slept through some of those materials classes; but, if I recall correctly, isn't there a tradeoff between hardness and brittleness? I still remember feeling like a kid who'd been caught with his hand in the cookie jar when the factory tech announced that I'd been shooting reloads.
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Old June 6, 2011, 03:12 PM   #48
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Yes, that's what I think as well...so harder - may pit more ...than a breech face that is a hair softer ...but not too soft ...( if that makes any sense ) ...

You should feel bad .... ....no, not really !!

Just imagine how much worse it would look if you'd fired a bunch of junk shells in it like Estate's ...( anything Estate puts in a box has to be way worse than any of my reloads...)

Of course it begs the question ...what if your reloads had been using Chedite primers instead of Remington or Winchester 209's .../ and what if you had been shooting hotter loads ...say at 1250 fps ...would it have been ever worse ??
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