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Old May 31, 2011, 11:05 AM   #1
jd3020
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reloading primers

I am starting to get into reloading just for the simple fact that i have a million empty hulls laying around from buying and shooting. My biggest stock of empty hulls is remington 12 ga. 2 3/4 1-1/8 load 8 shot. I am loading them back to a 1 oz load with 8 shot. When i was purchasing all of my goodies i bought cheddite 209 primers. but after looking through my recipies i cannot find any load data for cheddite primers. Some one had told me that they are the same as the winchester but i know that when it comes to reloading you never sub one part for another. so I am wanting to find out if any one knows of any load specs on these cheddite primers. this is what i have for my goodies. i am using a mec versa 12ga press with a 302-100 charge bar and a #30 bushing and clayboys 1100-12 wads. my powder choice was alliant promo and in the #30 bushing it is throwing right at the 17 grain mark. so cheddite primers are what i picked up but im considering switching to rem 209 or winchester 209 just so i can get accurate load specs. Also i have heard that once you use a cheddite primer you can reload that shell again with out useing cheddite primers because it enlarges the hole is this a true statement.
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Old May 31, 2011, 12:02 PM   #2
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A couple of things ....

It is hard to find load data for Chedite primers. However, there were some studies done / articles in some of the shotgun mags, etc ...that said they were similar to Win 209's ...but I don't know, off hand, where you can verify that. I will also tell you, when primers were in short supply - a lot of shooters at my club were replacing Win 209 recipes / with Chedite 209 primers - and none of them reported any issues. I did try some myself - and they seemed fine as well. But you are right - going away from published recipes is never a good idea / and switching primers on shotshells - is not recommended.

The Chedite primers are a little oversized compared to Win and Rem 209's ...and will be a little more difficult to seat the first time you use them. Does it render the hull - unusable for any other kind of primer ...not in my experience. But if you're going to use Chedite primers - I'd probably say, stay with them.

What the shells had in them originally / is irrelevent. An STS hull / is an STS hull. You can reload them with 7/8 oz, 1 oz , or 1 1/8oz by changing the recipe for wad, powder...and maybe primer.

You're picking a good hull - the REM STS 12ga hulls, I find are lasting well into 20+ reloads in 1oz if I keep the velocity under 1225 fps.

Your choice in reloaders is a model of MEC I have no experience with / even though I've used MEC loaders for almost 50 yrs. I do know the Versa..was discontinued in mid 80's ...but I don't know why. Personally I use either the Grabber or the 9000 HN models / and they've been great loaders / but there is no reason not to use the loader you have as far as I know.

I have no experience with Alliant Promo powder or the Clayboys 1100-12 wads ....

Personally, in 12ga, I use Hodgdon Clays powder - and Duster brand wads for 1 oz, I use a Green Duster). Alliant makes good powders - but in my area, 99% of the shooters are loading:
a. Hodgdon Clays in 12ga for powder
b. using Duster, Win, Rem or Claybuster wads..
c. on primers its a mix - Win, REM --- and still some Chedite/personally I prefer Rem primers over Win ( I've had a lot of mis-fires with Win 209's - and no longer trust them). If I couldn't get Rem 209's / I'd be tempted to go to Chedite 209's .
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Old May 31, 2011, 12:03 PM   #3
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I have never tried Cheddite primers so I don't know about the hole inlargment but I have used winchester, CCI and Remington with out changing my recipe.

Last edited by jhog1; May 31, 2011 at 12:11 PM.
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Old May 31, 2011, 12:21 PM   #4
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NobelSports and Win 209 are interchangeable. IIRC, Cheddite and Fiocchi are close enough to share data
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Old May 31, 2011, 02:52 PM   #5
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i have loaded right around 100 shells so far and as far a which rem hulls i am using im not for sure. I know they are in that sts catagory as they are the target shells you buy from good ole wally world. The mec versa yes is discontinued but i believe is pretty much the same as the mec jr. Its just a single stage reloader. As far as having an issure with the primers not seating very well or going in hard i havnt ran into it yet but then again i have only loaded up about 100 shells and the first 50 were way over charged with powder because the guy that was helping me got me the wrong charge bar for my press. I have heard cheddite primers are hotter then win chesters so to back off .5 of a grain on my powder. but is a .5 of a grain going to make that much of a difference. and also where do they get their pressure data from in a shell?
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Old May 31, 2011, 03:32 PM   #6
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The makers have the equipment for pressure testing. There is also a company that will pressure test your ammo - for a fee. I do not remember the name off the top of my head, but either Google or someone here might remember.

Where using some of the European primers like Fiocchi and Cheddite may cause issues is with seating as some are not tapered on the end, so initial insertion may seem a little tougher. There are a few types that are just ever so slightly larger so if you switch back you might have an issue.

When Win 209s started costing $75 MORE than NobelSports, I switched and haven't had any issues
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Old May 31, 2011, 03:55 PM   #7
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my box of 1000 cheddites costed me 28 bucks and the other ones he had there were like 40 something for 1000 and i guess in my mind i was thinking cheaper the better because i didnt really consider a primer being that big of an issue.
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Old May 31, 2011, 04:35 PM   #8
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switching primers can be a big deal .../ and most of the reloading manuals tell you " do not do it " ......and I don't know anything about the powder you're using ...but if its a published recipe using Win 209 primers - its probably fine.

Cost is a factor - and yes, the Chedite primers are cheaper ...

It sounds like you're using the Rem gun club hulls ( typically they're black in a 12ga ) ...but they use the same recipe as the STS hulls. But the Rem gun club hulls are thinner - and will crack way sooner than the more durable STS hulls ( all of the STS hulls are marked ). I don't know for sure what wallyworld is selling ...and it may vary from region to region...
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Old May 31, 2011, 08:18 PM   #9
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Promo is one of alliants powders similar to red dot. They have recipes on their web site but they are showing them with rem 209m primers. They have some data with win 209 but it's up in the 1-1/8 load. I hate to keep going and reload all of these hulls and then it be a waste. As far as the hulls they Re green in color not black with a shorter base tapered on the inside at the bottom
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Old May 31, 2011, 08:31 PM   #10
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Gun Clubs are green with a rib-like finish, not the shiny green smooth finish like the STS, but they reload using the same data - as does the Remington game loads, etc - all excellent hulls

From another forum came this:

Quote:
I hope this doesn't look like a set up, but I just got a reply from Aliant Powder company's "Ask the Expert Form" on the same question of a primer chart. This is it:


We recommend the same data for the Win 209, Rem 209P, CCI 209, Fiocchi, Nobel Sport, and Cheddite primers. They are not all exactly the same, but close enough to use the same powder charge. The Fed 209A and CCI 209M are hotter. Thanks again.
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Old May 31, 2011, 09:45 PM   #11
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It looks like you got the right answer in the above post. I use CCI for all my shotgun,rifle,and pistol loads with a few exceptions. I have never had any problems using CCI when the recipe called for something else. Haven't loaded any shotshells in a long time. I definitely will be using the Cheddite primers if they are that much cheaper and i won't worry for a second about using them as a substitute for another primer.
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Old June 1, 2011, 09:55 AM   #12
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i did some more measuring last night using my digital scale and my mec 30 bushing is throwing any where from 17 grains to 17.6 grains. Im pretty sure i am safe with this load and my cheddite primers and my claybuster cb1100-12 wads. This is all new to me but i will know next time to maybe get some supplies that i can actually find recipes on.
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Old June 1, 2011, 10:04 AM   #13
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My long-time reload was 1oz of shot (hence the screen name) and 17.3 (or so the chart says the loading is) of Clays

Works great.

I have recently dropped shot charges to 7/8 and even 3/4 - not just to save money (lead is WAY up there), but to also reduce the recoil. Bumping the powder up a grain and dropping the shot works out about the same recoil wise, but the cost is much less due to the lead
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Old June 1, 2011, 11:05 AM   #14
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As we go thru this stuff ....we need good info ...your original note said clayboys ??? and I had no idea what you were using / and now its claybusters/which is good ...and a claybuster CB1100-12 is a replacement wad for WAA12SL in the formulas. Claybuster wads are fine - they use recycled plastic / so they're cheaper ....and that's not a bad thing. When you pattern your gun / you might get a few more flyers ...maybe not..but a lot of guys use claybuster wads. Winchester, Remington and Duster - all use plastics that are a little thicker / and they load a little more consistently.

Remington Gun club hulls and Rem STS hulls take the same components and recipes. The difference is the gun club hulls will not last as long as the STS - but they are not an issue.

Nothing wrong with Alliant powders - but I would recommend switching your 12ga loads to Hodgdon Clays ( its a lot easier to find in 8 lb kegs - in most areas) - and I think it burns cleaner than most other options / but like I said, I have no info on the powder you chose. A bushing throwing 17.0 to 17.6 is quite a bit of variation / it tells me you might have a static problem / because most any bushing will have a variation of no more than 0.1 grain ...and while 0.6 probably isn't dangerous / it may be an indication that you have some adjustments to make in the press or a static problem ( wipe down the plastic bottles,etc / make sure the bar is traveling its full intended length / consider installing a powder baffle ...) - and the owners manual will walk you thru all that stuff ( and you can get them online from MEC - if you don't have one ).

As you go thru this process - its probably costing you about $ 0.15 to reload a 12ga shell. 8 cents is from the cost of the shot ( so most of us use 1 oz or 7/8oz ), powder and primers are about $ 0.03 each / and a wad is about
$ 0.02 each ....so buy in bulk once you settle on recipe and components you like ( primers in case lots of 5,000 / powder in 8lb kegs / wads in 5,000 qty and it'll help you keep your costs down.

But talk to other shooters / see what they're using and why / what they like, etc ...and no matter what, have fun with this new process of reloading !!
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Old June 1, 2011, 05:24 PM   #15
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yes i understand good information is a plus and that was my fault for calling the wads clay boys and not clay busters but for my 500 wads i paid 8.50 for my promo powder i paid 12.00 per 1 lb my cheddite primers were like i said 28.00 for 1000 and #8 shot was i believe 36.50 for 25lbs. Now on the promo powder a friend of mine is a big reloader on anything that goes bang and he has had some run in with promo powder and what he told me is that promo is actually a little bit of every powder alliant makes and its like the left overs and they combine it into this "promo" that is cheaper to use. Im not for sure that i like this or not after finding this out and that could be why it throws different weights.
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Old June 1, 2011, 05:40 PM   #16
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I'm not a chemist ...but if that's true, I'm not sure I'd like it either ....but I agree, that if you can't get it to drop accurately, its not a good option either.

But there are a number of powders that are very fine grains - like Hodgdon International or Longshot ...and even with the larger flake of Hodgdon Clays ...it drops way more consistent than 0.6 grains variation .....

I still suspect some anti-static dryer sheets ( wipe the insides and the outsides of the powder cannister on the press ) ....will fix your problem. Or maybe make sure the loader is bolted down very securely / and analyze your actions in terms of operating the handle every time / is it always the same ...or does it bottom out a little more firmly from time to time ...causing some variation.

Powder baffles are available ... Downrange makes one of the most used ...and while MEC doesn't offer it / it may help --- or you may be able to borrow one from someone in your area that has them and has elected not to use them. Guys like me, that have reloaded for 40 yrs ....have boxes of accessories ...left over stuff, things we tried - didn't like, so we aren't using them .... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=788046
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Old June 1, 2011, 07:00 PM   #17
jd3020
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I will try the dryer sheet and see if it helps. Some one also told me to put a piece of clear scotch tape on the inside of the bushing. As far a baffle I have never heard of one or saw one for that fact so I will have to check it out. The promo powder is what I would call a pretty good flake for powder. Not as fine as I thought it would be but maybe this could be some of my problem as well
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Old June 1, 2011, 07:12 PM   #18
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The red plastic PC baffle is THE one that really works and it costs less than a beer from the C-store
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Old June 1, 2011, 09:25 PM   #19
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H.P. White Labs.
314 Scarboro Rd.
Street Md. 21154

You might contact Graf and sons in Mexico Missouri in that I believe they were probably the first to bring the Cheddite primers into the country.
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Old June 2, 2011, 08:12 AM   #20
jd3020
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Here is a picture of the promo powder and its size. I didnt have a chance to try the dryer sheet out or the tape out last night but hopefully i will be able to tonight. hopefully that picture will load if not i will have to find a different way to load it
powder.jpg
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Old June 2, 2011, 11:42 AM   #21
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The bushing charts show what a # X bushing will drop for a specific powder...and sometimes what we want to drop is between bushings. So we've long looked for a way to "tighten" one up or ream one out a little. Reaming one out on a lathe or a drill press is pretty easy ...just get it spinning and touch it with a little bit of emery cloth...and go easy / they're soft. / and then I use a dremel - to remark them, once I've monkeyed with them a little ...and go over my new marks on it with a black permanent marker.

The "old way" of tightening up a bushing ... is to use fingernail polish on the inside / and then polish it a little with fine emery cloth ...to tune it, so it drops exactly what you want... I wouldn't put tape in there.../I'd be constantly worried about it loosening up ...

But none of those techniques address the variation problem you're having ..

I clean the bottles inside and out with dryer sheets / and one indication of having a static problem is if you have small flecks of powder sticking to the side of the container. I also store my open cans of powder - with dryer sheets inside the containers / and wipe those containers down with them as well. How big an issue this is depends on how dry the air in your home is ...some climates have more issues than others.

Last edited by BigJimP; June 2, 2011 at 11:50 AM.
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Old June 2, 2011, 12:44 PM   #22
jd3020
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well i will say that my reloading table is in my basement in a concrete room. not for sure of the temp or humidity level but i would say around the 65 degree mark. Humidity i couldnt tell you. I know i have some towels in the basement bathroom that even when they sit all day and all night they are still damp the next morning. i will take a few tests tonight and then try wiping the dryer sheet on the bottle and the bushing to see if that gives me a more consistant reading.
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Old June 2, 2011, 01:57 PM   #23
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Static - is a product of it being too dry in there ...not damp.

But high humidity can be an issue too ....causing the powder to pick up moisture and then clump and not meter as well.... If its that damp in you're reloading area / you may need to just dump all the powder back into the storage container every time you're done reloading ....and then mix it up real well before you drop it back into the cannister on the loader before you start reloading.

As a routine ...when I start the loader ( I put spent - still primed shells - in the powder drop and shot drop stations ...and cycle the loader 7 or 8 times / measuring the powder after the 5th drop or so ...to make sure its consistent. Once it's dead nuts on my goal of say 18.3 grains ...for my 1 oz loads in 12ga ...then I run my hulls thru the press ...and I only check about 1 shell in 25 ...just to make sure nothing has changed.

Powder drops will change - as the bottles empty as well .../ so I always keep it more than half full. You refill the shot more often anyway ...and I just top off the powder when I fill the shot...

But like I said before ....make sure the loader is clamped or bolted down tightly / make sure you're not varying your motion as you cycle the loader / as well ( which is kind of difficult on a single stage press )....but you'll get it all worked out.

Last edited by BigJimP; June 2, 2011 at 02:03 PM.
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Old June 2, 2011, 05:29 PM   #24
jd3020
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i know it bolted down good to the table so it doesnt move. my motions on the press i do the same thing every time. I just think i probably chose a poor powder to deal with. but maybe i didnt i will try these things and see if it helps
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Old June 2, 2011, 05:33 PM   #25
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good / let us know ...or drop me a personal note, if I can help you...or at least I'll try ...
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