The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 24, 2011, 04:52 PM   #1
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I've heard an expert w/pump can fire as fast a semi auto

But after watching a lot of YouTube videos, I don't think so.

I've seen a lot of people fire the pump & the auto and they definately fire the autos more quickly and get more rounds on target in a shorter period of time.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 05:01 PM   #2
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,108
In an expert's hands, sure, and autoloader is darned quick. The question, is whether the regular shooter can deliver the most shots on target in the shortest time.

It's all fairly academic, as most of us are limited to three shots in the game fields.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 05:26 PM   #3
Technosavant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO area
Posts: 3,855
I've shot skeet with a pump, and while I readily admit I'm far from expert, I just don't see how a trained person with a pump can be at zero speed disadvantage to a trained person with a semiauto. The recoil impulse of the semi is easier to manage, you don't have a slide to operate (thereby moving the muzzle around), and a semi action is just plain faster to work than human reaction times. While I can hit doubles with a pump, I know I'm just a shade of a tick slower on that second bird.

A trained person with a pump may well be faster than a newbie with a semiauto, but that's comparing apples and oranges anyway.
Technosavant is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 05:29 PM   #4
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
It is not even close - about twice as fast with semi-auto - That is why I have to laugh, where, in the many, many HD threads someone recommends a pump over an auto because the pump is "just as fast." Since it's half as fast, the only resason to get a pump is because you are used to using a pump action and you like it best. No reason a pump can't be effective.
jmortimer is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 05:35 PM   #5
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,669
I agree that it isn't nearly as fast in simply making it go bang. However, when you factor in the time it takes to get back on target, the difference becomes much smaller.
Doyle is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 05:42 PM   #6
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Quote:
It is not even close - about twice as fast with semi-auto - That is why I have to laugh, where, in the many, many HD threads someone recommends a pump over an auto because the pump is "just as fast."
I totally agree with this... I've seen all sorts of people fire the 12ga and the muzzle doesn't fly up in the air or anything... for HD consideration, you could easily double tap someone in the time it takes to cycle a pump.

I don't know if double tap is the word you use to describe putting two shotgun hits on a person - seems kind of an understatement.

But anyway, I have heard it said a lot that "with the right training" or "in the hands of an expert" the pump is just as fast, and I don't think that's true.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 05:53 PM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,406
The idea that a pump is just as fast as an auto is ludicrous.

Sure, "some" auto, somewhere, is slow enough and in the hands of the wrong shooter, slower yet, and such shooter with such gun might well be slower than some other much more competent shooter with a pump.

However, the idea that a skilled shooter would not, generally and virtually always, be able to accurately fire a semi faster than they could a pump under the same circumstances is beyond silly.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 06:01 PM   #8
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 4,908
A pump can, indeed, be just as fast, even faster.
It all depends on the situation.
I've seen quite a few pump masters win overall at steel and pin matches.
As long as they don't screw up and short stroke.
But, for us normal folks, the auto loader does make life easier.
Except, of course, when they don't auto load.
But that's another can of worms.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 06:07 PM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers
A pump can, indeed, be just as fast, even faster.
It all depends on the situation.
I've seen quite a few pump masters win overall at steel and pin matches.
As long as they don't screw up and short stroke.
But, for us normal folks, the auto loader does make life easier.
Except, of course, when they don't auto load.
But that's another can of worms.

That's because there is a relatively fixed amount of time betweens shots, during the swing, and it is longer than the cyclic time of either an auto or a pump.

Take an instance with much shorter time, Tom Knapp's hand-thrown pidgeon record, for example. There's no way happens with a pump gun.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 06:29 PM   #10
kozak6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,322
Yeah, but most of us aren't Tom Knapp.

I think if you roll with the recoil and use it to aid your pumping, a pump shotgun can be cycled fast enough such that it doesn't really matter.
kozak6 is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 06:46 PM   #11
tAKticool
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2010
Posts: 416
I've heard a lot of braggards about how fast a pump can be and how they're faster with a pump than most people like me with a semi.

Bulllllll-ssssssstufff.


Professionals and/or serious competitors? Sure.

The rest ? Nope, sucka, sit down and shut up.
tAKticool is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 06:59 PM   #12
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 5,814
I've seen Tom Knapp perform his stunts on video with a pump as well as an auto. He is only a fraction of a second slower for all shots with a pump than an auto.

I don't think it is possible to be faster with a pump, (given shooters of equal skill) but there will be very little difference if you have to actually hit something. Someone who is just throwing lead down range may be abe to do it, but I'd have to see it before I'd believe it.

I can work a pump pretty fast and have gotten off 3 shots in a hurry, but I can't do it every time. When I try to run a pump that fast I end up short stroking it and messing up fairly often.
jmr40 is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 07:28 PM   #13
Eghad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
What about an older pump without a trigger disconnect?
__________________
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 07:30 PM   #14
Gehrhard
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2009
Location: East of the Missississippippi
Posts: 675
There were some slow semi-autos. There are some fast pumpgun shooters. The slowest modern semi is considerably faster than the fastest pumpgun to fire, extract, eject, load, get back on target and fire again.

No-one seriously says differently anymore and hasn't for a few decades...

Gehr
Gehrhard is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 07:33 PM   #15
Ac1d0v3r1d3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2005
Location: Goldendale, Washington
Posts: 439
I've never shot an auto loading shotgun. But I have unloaded 8 rounds at a hand thrown clay. Missed 7 times too.

If pumps were faster than autos I believe that we would see more pump action rifles
__________________
I aint the worlds best writer nor the best speller But when i believe in something i'm the loudest yeller.
Woody Guthrie
Ac1d0v3r1d3 is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 08:45 PM   #16
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,392
I've competed in NSSA Skeet (4-gauges + doubles) and ATA Trap (singles, handicap & doubles). I never saw anyone compete with a pump gun except in ATA singles and handicap events. Hadn't OP asked about putting shot on target, and just asked about rate of fire, then the auto-loader's lead increases even more. check this out

Last edited by zippy13; May 26, 2011 at 01:46 AM.
zippy13 is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 08:46 PM   #17
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
Patrick Flanigan holds the current record for hitting hand-thrown clays and its was 6 and now 7 with the pump and 13 with a semi-auto.
jmortimer is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 08:48 PM   #18
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
No expert with the shot gun here, I am a rifleman first and a pistol shooter by training. However after a year with my semi-auto and 40 years with the pump I can state that I am at least as fast or a bit faster with my pump gun as I am the semi. Not because the semi-auto is slow cycling or the pump is that much easier to shoot but its the getting back on target time that makes the difference for me. I'm just more used to the pump. To just rack out 5 shots in a hurry the semi would win but if I am taking on multiple surface targets like I do when I am practicing my pump gets on target faster and I get my next shot off quicker. In real life there isn't much difference in effectiveness for me but old habits rule the day as far as comfort zone goes. I can use either but the pump will always be my first choice.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 08:53 PM   #19
shootniron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Posts: 1,147
Quote:
Patrick Flanigan holds the current record for hand hitting hand-thrown clays and its was 6 and now 7 with the pump and 13 with a semi-auto.
According to this video, and what I saw on tv, Patrick's record is 7 with the auto...not 13.
shootniron is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 09:21 PM   #20
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,406
According to The Sporting Clay Tournaments website, as of Feb 8, 2011, Tom Knapp holds the record for handthrown clays with an auto at 10.

http://www.sportingclaytournaments.com/?p=187

Flanigan's website says he did 11 in 2005 but there's no video.

I see no claims to anyone hitting more than 7 with a pump.


Keep in mind that these are the absolute best of the best who shoot clays for a living. They are essentially showing that the best shooters in the world are 10/7 or 11/7 faster with an auto than a pump. That means an auto is between 42 and 57% faster than a pump.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 09:58 PM   #21
solidgun
Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 46
I just don't see how pump action can be faster in the hands of an expert. Wouldn't the semi-auto cycle much faster and stay on target better to deliver the subsequent shots?

I have the Benelli M3, and I can't imagine the pump cycling faster than the semi-auto.
solidgun is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 10:56 PM   #22
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,342
Round per round fired in practice, time behind the bead, a semi will result in a faster rate of fire.

Does 3 shots a second make you more effective than 2?

Is a pump fast enough for defensive use? Sure. Is it reliable for a low time, low skill level user? The Police seem to get by with it effectively. Would a semi be an improvement? I'm not sure, but I think the training curve would be easier.

Also, regarding the lack of a disconnector, I've compared shotguns with and without on pepper-poppers with a timer. I found I did better with the disconnector- the cycling closed of the pump handle tended to make me drop the shot down by the 4 or 5 o'clock on guns without the disconnector.

Of the Police shotgun encounters I've read about, they all seemed to end on shot #1, so draw your own conclusions.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 11:25 PM   #23
Jimmy10mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2010
Location: Greenacres, FL
Posts: 906
There is a fellow name of Tom Bradley, in a promotional video on youtube by Beretta, for the X-trema2 semi auto, and that thing was akin to a full auto in that man's hands. I couldn't imagine a pump being cycled more rapidly with the same accuracy. YMMV. Check out the video. The title is Beretta Shotgun Xtrema2 Demo
__________________
Quote:
"the 380 in your pocket is better than the 45 you left at home." posted by, mavracer
Jimmy10mm is offline  
Old May 24, 2011, 11:32 PM   #24
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
Right it is 11 by Patrick Flanigan and this may be more to the point
"Xtreme Record #6 12 rounds shot in 1.42 seconds with the Winchester SX3 on April 3rd 2007."
http://www.patrickflanigan.com/flani...ssrelease.html
Here are pictures of Flanigan's record, breaking 11 hand-thrown clays on pages 2 and 3 of the 2007 Winchester Catalog http://www.browningint.com/services/...es_win07uk.pdf
Here is video of the 12 shots in 1.42 seconds seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3Yv6eMG5x0
Now we can move on as the semi-auto blows the doors off the pump action. The pump action is still a good choice for HD, it is what I have for now until I can get an FN SLP or M4 or 930.

Last edited by jmortimer; May 25, 2011 at 12:22 AM.
jmortimer is offline  
Old May 25, 2011, 12:10 AM   #25
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,392
Wouldn't the semi-auto cycle much faster and stay on target better to deliver the subsequent shots?
Yes!
zippy13 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14497 seconds with 9 queries