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Old May 30, 2011, 03:09 PM   #1
seansean1444
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shotgun tech in a rut?!?!

does anybody else think that shotgun technology is in a rut?? why arnt we seeing more shotguns fed by external mags like the saiga?? having a magazine tube that is part of the gun is like having a 5rd fixed mag (like on a mosin) on an ar platform. i think shotguns have much more potential than what they are. personally i think the future "combat" or tacticool shotguns are going to be mag fed. lets hear what u think
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Old May 30, 2011, 03:42 PM   #2
Mayor Al
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I am a Saiga S-12 owner, and casual shooter, not deeply into shooting research. In theory, the magazine load is the future as I see it. As the state of the art progresses in that direction, several things must happen to make the magazine load work.

1. A more uniform agreement is needed between the states about capacity and shape (drums?). Not very likely, but needed.

2. Easier handling mags to facilitate reloading. I am a bit clumsey, and have a difficult time trying to insert the Mag to my Saiga using only one hand. The Last Round Bolt-open device is vital for that. In most situations, for me, reloading requires two hands.

3. The longer stick Mags are 'gawky' to use. Heavy and they stick out far below the gun making the balance change at a time when change is not good. I speak of the 10 round stick for the Saiga in this case. The 12 rounder is worse.

I carry one 5 round mag in the gun, and two 5 rounders in my shooting vest for feeding time. So far that has worked well for me. Next weekend is Hog Hunt time for us, and we'll see how that load set-up works in a 'combat-hunting situation'.

I do know that I can be well into my second Five-round mag before my companion has his 12 gauge ready to go with his second set of 4 rounds.
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Old May 30, 2011, 03:46 PM   #3
seansean1444
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exactly! haha. even if you can only have 10 round mags?? maybe that will be the uniform law you speak of who knows but it is still much faster to drop a mag out of the gun and slap in a new one than pushing shells 1 by one into a tube on the gun. suprised the military doesnt have a good amount of funding in this idea
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Old May 30, 2011, 03:57 PM   #4
hogdogs
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A solution to a non existent problem?

First of all, COMBAT or TACTI-whatever in the hands of a hired "force" don't need the box style removable magazines... There simply isn't a need.

They are not the primary weapon of a fighting force and have limited uses in said force so the ammo quantity required is less than a fighting force's rifle.

If you find yourself in a fire fight as a "troop" and are the shotgun man... you have riflemen covering the enemy with rifle fire.

A troop is also only able to carry so many shotgun rounds before weight is an issue...

An individual that "needs" that sort of round quantity and box style mag has the AWESOME KILLER Saiga at his disposal.

This is only my opinion and YMMV...

Brent
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:00 PM   #5
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One more point... It takes far longer to remove the mag, reload it and reinsert it than a well practiced shotgunner can stuff shells up the tube and he doesn't have a mag he has to control and worry about dropping in the dirt...

brent
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:04 PM   #6
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Not enough demand. The vast majority of shotguns are, and always will be, for sporting purposes. Can't have a hi-cap mag for migratory birds and most people will not want a bulky detachable mag for big game or skeet. As far as self defence or military, an 8 round tube is pretty darn good. Acceptable capacity and easy to load. I would much rather carry around loose ammo than 6 or 7 huge mags. plus more ammo.
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:04 PM   #7
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Unfortunately, it has only been in the last twenty or so years folks have had to concearn themselves with armed gangs. This is only in parts of our suposedly civilized Nation.

Just remember the greater the firepower, the sooner the bad guys will have it for their use.

I would highly recommend getting out of the war zone and into a peaceful environment.

Practice accurate and effective use of your weapon vs. laying down a field of fire. More firepower weapons might just mean you get cut down quicker by the opposition.

Just a thought.
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:06 PM   #8
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I was wondering if that underslung M26 has any recoil buffer. From what I could read I don't think so and there doesn't seem to be any room between the chamber and the M16 mag well. I think you get the full recoil.

Well anyway - the M26 is kind of an innovation, but it sort of points out that probably a soldier with his battle rifle / assualt rifle is only occasionally going to need a shotgun, but a solider with a shotgun is going to frequently need a rifle.
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:08 PM   #9
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I don't particularly like the look of a box-mag fed shotgun. I guess I'm a traditionalist.
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:13 PM   #10
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A protruding box mag style gun never totes on my back as comfy as any tube fed firearm be it my .22LR's or shotguns...

And for "improvised rest" shooting, it always seems to be right where I want to lay the rifle or place my forward hand... Call me a diva but I like a smooth bottom...
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:19 PM   #11
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Yeah, shotgun technology is in a rut.

Christopher Spencer invented the first successful pump action in 1882, and JMB invented the first semiautomatic shotgun in 1898.

Part of the resistance to box magazine fed shotguns is that tube magazines are better for sporting shotguns, and "good enough" for fighting shotguns.

For sporting shotguns, they are snag free, allow for easier handling and carrying, easily plugged, more easily allow for multiple shotshell lengths, are better for shooting sports, work better for rimmed cartridges, and allow one to carry the shotgun by the receiver. They've also been the status quo for almost 130 years.

It's also more difficult to design a box magazine for rimmed cartridges, and for a shotshell in particular. Rimlock is a problem, multiple cartridge lengths are a problem, and shells deforming in the magazine are a problem.

Most fighting shotguns are just variations on sporting shotguns, and it turns out that since shotguns aren't terribly popular for combat, tube mag fed shotguns are "good enough". After all, why isn't the AA-12 more popular?
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:44 PM   #12
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Probably improvements could come about in shotgun ammo, but what could improved shotgun ammo do that existing weapons systems can't do?

Between the SAW, M16A4, M203/ M320 grenade launcher and the XM25 IAWS, is there anything that super shotgun ammo could do that one of these weapon systems can't already do?

As far as HD goes, short of Zombiepocalypse, I personally think 8 rounds is going to be more than enough for any situation I might face.

But even if it isn't - look at the KSG - 14+1 rounds there...
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Old May 30, 2011, 06:58 PM   #13
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Because their primarily a sporting weapon and the current designs work great for that purpose as others have pointed out along with several issues in shotguns using magazines, the military doesn't have much combat use for them other weapons can easily fill its role or supplement it during a firefight their adequate and thats all they really need for a limited use weapon. Suppl and demand theres very little demand for a new design so theres very little supply.
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Old May 30, 2011, 08:05 PM   #14
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Well, when major departures are tried, they tend to not sell and the folks who buy shotguns tend to complain long and loud that anybody thought to change things up.

Exhibit A: Remington 105 CTi. No argument that the initial versions had iffy reliability, but that was fixed, and then folks ran the other way from the gun. Result: it's no longer in production. Shotgun people tend to be set in their ways and not terribly interested in new designs.

As for box magazines, they aren't as useful as you seem to think. The S12's rock and lock method makes for rather difficult reloading with a full mag and closed chamber. It's no faster to reload than a tube mag with a speedloader, and you also pick up the feeding issues present when the round has a rimmed base and no curve to it at all; you might as well try to design a semiauto pistol that will run .38spl wadcutters. To top it all off, when you start getting into 10 round mags, they are LONG; they seriously reduce maneuverability of the shotgun. Detachable box mags on a shotgun are something that sounds awesome to folks who haven't really used them but are just not that big a deal to those who have (and yes, I do have a Saiga 12).

IMO, shotgun development is pretty well matured, and all you'll see now is variations on themes. New materials, minor changes to the operating system, etc. Much like rifles and handguns- this is mature technology, and there isn't that much room for tremendous forward leaps in design.
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Old May 31, 2011, 12:48 AM   #15
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look at the KSG - 14+1 rounds there...
-------------------------------------

Yep, interested to see how the KSG works out. Likely to be some bugs in the initial offering (isn't there always?), but if it proves to be reliable, then catches on and sells well....market forces will make imitation an imperative.

And yeah, I know the KSG design is based on another, older design. But timing (and good marketing) is everything.
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Old May 31, 2011, 07:40 AM   #16
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Akdal Arms is importing a mag fed shotgun. Not many so far, a couple dealers have been talking. People who like cool toys and 3-gun competitors will snap them up.
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Old May 31, 2011, 09:36 AM   #17
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Box magazine fed.

If a shotgun has a tube magazine, it is magazine fed as well.
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Old May 31, 2011, 09:48 AM   #18
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When they figured out how to mount two barrels, side by side, with two separate firing mechanisms, and the barrels indexed to the same point of aim at a predetermined yardage, they reached the apex, the epitome of shotgun technology.

Anything since then is just useless piddling.

Did I mention that I'm an old quail hunter?
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Old May 31, 2011, 10:05 AM   #19
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It would seem to me that there is room for improvement in the technology of recoil. Both in reduction of felt recoil and possibly energy conservation, the latter being Buck Rogers sci fi, but sci fi has a habit of becoming reality.
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Old May 31, 2011, 10:24 AM   #20
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drop out or drop in mags ....are going nowhere in my opinion ( but then I rely on old technology for my defense - a 5" 1911 in .45acp too ) ....and none of the poly frame, high cap mags make any difference to me ...in my selection of a defensive weapon.

I understand that a lot of guys depend on a shotgun for their primary defense (although we can debate in another thread whether that's a smart choice or not ) ....but in relying on a relatively standard pump gun or semi-auto shotgun ......nothing is broken, so no reason to look for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Benelli has produced a superior fighting shotgun - a gas operated M-4 / or any number of their Inertia operated semi-autos as well...and I don't know that we needed them either / but they are certainly good options to reduce recoil, etc.

The point about a mag tube on a shotgun being very easy to load is certainly true as well...whether its on a pump-gun or on a semi-auto like the M-4 ...so I don't see what a drop out mag does for anyone.
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Old May 31, 2011, 03:44 PM   #21
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People are referencing the S12's rock-and-lock as an inherent problem with shotgun detachable magazines. It doesn't need to be that way. Heck, you can buy S12 magwells, and the Russians even have some models that come with them. Same thing goes for loading on a closed bolt; don't confuse the S12's problems for "shotgun box magazines in general" problems.

It's also not as if speedloaders are an instant-fix to tube load times, either; they require some real practice to use well, especially under stress. Tubes can be reloaded quickly, but you're not going to be beating the reload time of a large magazine - again, especially in a super stressful situation. (If it was, you'd see integral-tube-magazine AR-15s, amirite?)

I think there's a better argument to be made that 12ga shotgun magazines tend to be rather impractical once you exceed five rounds; the sheer length of the magazine becomes absurd. Drums are better, but they're a political liability due to their "evil" looks, and they don't lend themselves to typical "tactical" reloads (ie, you'll probably need two hands for the operation).
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Old May 31, 2011, 03:49 PM   #22
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erwos, The real draw back that is a deal breaker is the compressed shells, and the feed problems associated with 100% flat nosed shells and the rim...

Also, I don't know how many "mags" a person can fit in the 2 cargo pockets of his BDU pants but I can carry probably 80-100 shells if not a few more...

Brent
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Old May 31, 2011, 04:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
When they figured out how to mount two barrels, side by side, with two separate firing mechanisms, and the barrels indexed to the same point of aim at a predetermined yardage, they reached the apex, the epitome of shotgun technology.

Anything since then is just useless piddling.

Did I mention that I'm an old quail hunter?
This is the most correct statement so far..................
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Old May 31, 2011, 04:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
People are referencing the S12's rock-and-lock as an inherent problem with shotgun detachable magazines. It doesn't need to be that way. Heck, you can buy S12 magwells, and the Russians even have some models that come with them. Same thing goes for loading on a closed bolt; don't confuse the S12's problems for "shotgun box magazines in general" problems.
If people are going to bring up the S12 as an example of how box magazines are better than tubes, then YES, its drawbacks do indeed come into play. When you use a design to point out advantages, the disadvantages of that platform also enter the field of discussion. In practice, they just don't swap well. trying to hurry it is a great way to have the thing fall off because you didn't get the front lip secured properly.

You are correct that it doesn't need to be that way; somebody could indeed make a shotgun with a straight-in method of insertion a la AR-15 (IIRC, CMMG was working on a .410 bore upper for use on AR lowers, but I've not seen if they've come to fruition). But is it worth that much trouble to design and tool up for such a thing when the good old tube with shell lifter works great? We agree that once you get past 6-7 shells, the mag becomes ludicrously long, and guess what... you can get that many into a regular mag tube on a 18.5" shotgun.

And that's assuming you can get it to feed. The 12 gauge shell is remarkably wide for its length, and getting that to feed well is not easy. You have to have a mag that will present the shell rather high for loading into the chamber, but that results in pressing the shell against the bolt when left loaded.

There's finally the use of the shotgun. They generally aren't the weapon of choice for those having to engage in running gunbattles. If you're room clearing they're great to have, but you can usually pause and top off your mag tube while your buddies with the AR-15s and/or MP-5s cover you if you had to bust off 3-4 shots in one given room. Defensive shotguns work best for up close work, and you won't be blowing through several magazines worth in rapid succession in that kind of scenario.
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Old May 31, 2011, 09:08 PM   #25
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The assumption that shotgun design has stagnated is myopic. Look at the turn bolt rifle, single and double action revolver and the auto-loading pistol. They've changed less over the last 100+ years than the shotgun. The reason for shooting multiple pellets rather than a single bullet is primarily to hit moving targets (generally birds and small game), and the shotgun has evolved very well along those lines.

Other uses of the shotgun be they buck slayers or antipersonnel are deviations from the original intent. Using buck shot over bullets is usually because of legal requirements. Given their druthers, wouldn't most deer hunters prefer balls to buck? Anyone who watches John Wayne westerns knows that for a gunfight, you give a shotgun to the the guys who don't know about guns -- proficient shooters get the rifles and handguns.

Yes, shotguns have limited applications for the military, law enforcement, and tactical wannabes. But, these limited applications shouldn't be used as a yardstick to evaluate overall shotgun evolution. I suspect the next generation of multi-caliber smart combat rifles will relegate the combat shotgun to obscurity. There will be no civilian counterparts of the next generation of MIL/LW arms and the tactic-cool fad will fade.

Redlevel42 was pretty close with his, "When they figured out how to mount two barrels, side by sideā€¦ they reached the apex, the epitome of shotgun technology." But, he neglects to take into account the major upgrade accomplished by turning the venerable side-by-side on edge. The over/under configuration solved the major complaints resulting from the SxS's horizontal eccentricity. If you were to go back a hundred years, the shooter of that day would easily recognize the little changed rifles and revolvers; but, a single-trigger O/U with screw-in chokes would seem like something from Mars.

Auto-loading shotguns have evolved along the same lines as auto pistols and rifles over the last hundred years, or so. Yet, there's no comparison when putting a modern gas operated shotgun with a similar rifle. The shotgun's ability to function with a wide variety of ammo demonstrates a higher degree of sophistication than the rifle.

IMHO, if you need more than two (or possibly three shots) from a shotgun then you either need more practice or you selected the wrong type of gun for the situation.
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