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Old May 28, 2011, 11:17 PM   #1
benellimax4
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Pump vs. Semi - 00 buck for HD

I did two informal tests today with my 870 and Benelli M2 to address the speed of semiauto shotgun vs a pump gun for home defense.

Q: I know a semiauto is much faster than a pump with birdshot. But, is it much faster with 00 buck?

If I wanted to be completely scientific, I would have done this multiple times, at different distances, and with multiple shooters. However, I think a general conclusion can be formed.

1. Pump vs Semi - 7.5 birdshot

2. Pump vs Semi - 00 buckshot, Federal LE-127

The Benelli was much faster with birdshot (duh) on a 3 round test at 7 yards on 3 targets. 2.1 seconds vs. 2.9 seconds. No surprise here.

With 00 buckshot, the Benelli was only slightly faster. 3.6 seconds vs. 3.9 seconds.

CONCLUSION:

More tests need to be done. However, I think I have convinced myself that the speed advantage of a semi auto vs. a pump starts to go away when full power 00 Buck is used. Why? Recoil. The shot to shot delay getting back on target due to the recoil of 00 buck starts to negate the mechanical speed advantage of the semiauto.

Has anyone else run their own tests?
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Old May 28, 2011, 11:50 PM   #2
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Has anyone else run their own tests?
Yes, I've done informal testing. I use an 870 by Wilson/Scattergun Tech.

Speed with the pump is achieved by using the backward momentum form recoil to operate the slide. As the gun recoils,the hand keeps coming back to operate the slide all the way to rear. The slide is operated forward as the shotgun is coming back down on target.

Shotgun recoils back and up--hand operates the side all the way to rear using recoil momentum.

As shotgun settles back down from recoil---hand is bringing slide to forward position and gun is immediately ready to fire again.


However: The pump is plenty fast, but the speed of the semi-auto in the hands of an EXPERIENCED user is awesome. The pump can't match it. I have a shotgun tape that Ayoob put out that would remove any doubt of the speed superiority of the auto---- with full power ammo.


On the other hand, the experienced pump user can shoot very fast. I used Winchester low recoil-low- noise loads to see how fast I could get off five shots. It took six tries, but I finally did it in .99 seconds. That's with the timer starting with the first shot--not reacting to the timer. Oh, and that's shots into target at 3 to 5 yds.


Average time was five shots in 1.3 seconds. And I'm old and rusty.

I don't think I could do that with full power loads, though maybe with LE low recoil Tactical (my SD ammo) with practice. I don't intend to try. Shots that are 1/3 of a second apart are fine.


The under arm assault position is also very fast, but the gun must be SECURE--other wise recoil can injure your hand or trigger finger.

Very typically what we see is: Shoot, recover from recoil, then start the slide to rear, then bring it forward. Very inefficient.

The proper method described above, is a TIMING thing. You can learn it, but don't rush things.

Lou Awerbuck has a good tape (hopefully in DVD now) that explains it. Gabe Suarez's Shotgun DVD is more recent and very good.

Last edited by Nnobby45; May 29, 2011 at 12:13 AM.
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Old May 29, 2011, 07:47 AM   #3
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I would need more practice, but have found that I am not that much faster with a semi-auto, so I prefer my pump. I am not experienced enough to be awesome with a semi.
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Old May 29, 2011, 08:21 AM   #4
benellimax4
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"...but the speed of the semi-auto in the hands of an EXPERIENCED user is awesome. The pump can't match it."

This is not my experience. I am a VERY experienced user with my Benelli M2. I have put thousands of rounds through it and taken formal shotgun classes at two different shooting schools. I am much newer with a pump gun. My result,

When using birdshot, the semi is much faster than the pump. When using 00 buck, the speed gap between the two is very small.

Did Ayoob's tape show the exact same shooter shooting both a semi and a pump for time with 00 buck? It could have been the shooter. For a valid test, the individual should be tested with both a pump and a semi.

Last edited by benellimax4; May 29, 2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old May 29, 2011, 09:29 AM   #5
Lee Lapin
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It's good that the baseline for your experiment included hits on target, not just shots downrange. Hits matter most.

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Old May 29, 2011, 01:00 PM   #6
benellimax4
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Yes. I think most people choose a semiauto for home defense based on the conclusion that a Benelli, Mossberg, or FN shotgun can dump a magazine of birdshot at a single target faster than a pump.

Under those conditions, the semi auto kills the pump. However, in the real world, you will be aiming the shotgun and using 00 buck with much more recoil.

Two different things entirely.
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Old May 29, 2011, 03:38 PM   #7
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Interesting...

Try the same Ex w/ a Knoxx Recoil Reducing Stock and I bet the difference weighs to the semi again. For me the decision to trust the Pump was the malfunction drills, similar theory to wheel gun.
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Old May 29, 2011, 08:43 PM   #8
Dave McC
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Good work, actually testing what works for you. Thanks....
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Old May 30, 2011, 03:44 AM   #9
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Did Ayoob's tape show the exact same shooter shooting both a semi and a pump for time with 00 buck? It could have been the shooter. For a valid test, the individual should be tested with both a pump and a semi.
No. The semi-auto was the main focus. From the assault position, it reminded me of the old BAR of WWII fame--slower than most other automatic weapons.

It wasn't just the speed that impressed me. It was the control.

And yes, I'd like to see the same demonstrator with the pump.

And I'd hate to be in a situation where I needed to lay down fire that fast and launch an assault--or worse yet, be on the other end of such an assault.

Last edited by Nnobby45; May 30, 2011 at 03:56 AM.
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Old May 31, 2011, 11:52 PM   #10
idek
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As you said, your tests were informal, and it is not my intent to discredit anything you determined.

I'm just posting to say it would be interesting if a pump and semi-auto of identical (or nearly so) shape/weight/balance/fit could be used to eliminate other variables. In the example given, one gun probably fits you a little better than the other and you admitted you have more experience with one than the other.

I'm curious as to how much of the speed difference has to do with working the action of a pump and how much has to do with getting back on target after the recoil and muzzle jump of the previous shot. On average, semi-autos have less felt recoil, giving them the advantage either way, so that may be hard to determine.
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Old June 1, 2011, 02:52 AM   #11
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"Back-in-the-day" when I was still shooting USPSA matches. We would have side matches, shooting steel/pepper poppers with shotguns. Bcause of the turn out, we had classes, and an overall winner. Major Shotgun (12 Ga.) and Minor shotgun (20 Ga.). We found, that the different between the 12 & 20 was very little, But the differents between Semi and Pump was huge, so big in fact that the Major/Minor was dropped, and was replaced with a Pumper Class and a Semi Class. After we had a Pump-Winner and a Semi-Winner. We would then change the course around and the top Pumper and the top Semi would shoot-off for overall winner. The 20 ga. semi dominated these matches.
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Old June 1, 2011, 03:30 AM   #12
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It's no contest, semi auto will always beat the pump gun for speed, all other factors being equal.
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:09 AM   #13
benellimax4
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Actually, unless you start posting some numbers, not just internet opinion, it is anything but "no contest" when you start shooting 00 buck.

Recoil dramatically lessens the advantage of a conventional tube fed semiauto over a pump.
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:23 AM   #14
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I like to KISS. Semi's are great for when you have your wits about you, but in a dire situation I want everything dumbed down to moron level. Pick up a revolver, point, and shoot. Pick up a pump shotgun, rack, and shoot. No complex mechanisms to remember, no safeties to remember, no magazines to fumble with or accidentally hit the release on, etc. My HD guns are two .357 magnum revolvers and a 12 gauge 870. Yeah kinda not in the spirit of this thread, but its how I feel regardless of how fast I can shoot something. Proficiency, as usual, will reign supreme as you fall back on practice and training.

Last edited by sirsloop; June 1, 2011 at 08:30 AM.
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Old June 1, 2011, 12:33 PM   #15
anonymousFolk
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Per

http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Shotg...6949528&sr=1-1

Most confrontations with a shotgun are resolved in one shot. I'd wager in a HD situation a short barrel over-under may even be sufficient.

Riot situation, different story.
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Old June 3, 2011, 08:00 PM   #16
arizona98tj
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Quote:
I like to KISS. Semi's are great for when you have your wits about you, but in a dire situation I want everything dumbed down to moron level. Pick up a revolver, point, and shoot. Pick up a pump shotgun, rack, and shoot. No complex mechanisms to remember, no safeties to remember, no magazines to fumble with or accidentally hit the release on, etc. My HD guns are two .357 magnum revolvers and a 12 gauge 870. Yeah kinda not in the spirit of this thread, but its how I feel regardless of how fast I can shoot something. Proficiency, as usual, will reign supreme as you fall back on practice and training.
Your response is puzzling and seems to hit at both ends of the pendulum swing.

You state that proficiency will reign supreme as you fall back on your training. That is something that everyone will do when the adrenalin starts flowing. I can't agree with that more. It is for that very reason I spend a couple of weeks per year in formal training classes and countless hours with my range buddy reinforcing what we learned in class.

However....there is no way I want everything dumbed down to the moron level. I train to ensure I will use the non-moron intended weapon at the level it was designed for.....taking advantage of what the firearm offers.

YMMV
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Old June 4, 2011, 11:10 PM   #17
ClydeFrog
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12ga loads for home defense....

Im not a big fan of using a pump or a semi auto shotgun for home protection in general. If I were to use a 12ga, I'd load it with a factory made LE/tactical shell like those marketed by Winchester, Federal, etc.

00 buck is good but may be hard to control in a high stress, chaotic event like a home invasion or break-in.

Delta Force, www.DeltaForce.com sells different 12ga loads with special features but they may not be "street legal" in all areas.

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Old June 4, 2011, 11:38 PM   #18
idek
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"Delta Force, www.DeltaForce.com sells different 12ga loads with special features but they may not be "street legal" in all areas."

I could be wrong about this, but I believe military and law enforcement pretty much stick with plain buckshot when they use shotguns. Personally, I'd shy away from any gimmick shotshells that contain tacks, piano wires, shoot flames, or whatever else. They may be good in theory and do horrible things to watermelons on youtube videos, but I don't know what kind of track record they have in actual serious situations.

You already said that you'd choose buckshot, so I'm not arguing with you. I'm just thinking out loud.

Last edited by idek; June 4, 2011 at 11:45 PM.
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Old June 5, 2011, 12:14 AM   #19
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Pump.
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