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Old May 27, 2011, 10:44 AM   #1
coop2564
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Do you carry with your own reloads?

Our instructer for CHL class said he didnt think carry with your own loads was a good idea. If you had to use them, court would try to label you a gun nut looking for trouble. What is your thoughts?
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Old May 27, 2011, 10:57 AM   #2
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I have been wondering the same thing. i just took the CCW class this past sunday and our instructor also said the same thing. as well as modifying your carry gun as well as a no no due to any lawyer is gonna try and make a marter out of you over it if it comes down to it.
i do still have my reloads in my G23 but when i do start carrying it every day i might rethink it.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:04 AM   #3
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This has been discussed many times here. I think it will boils down to weather or not it was a good shoot...not so much what type of ammo. I reload and cannot make it anymore "deadly" as compared to factory ammo.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:08 AM   #4
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NO! I personally carry with factory bought loads. It has been advised by a member of THL Massad Ayoob that no matter what YOU may have as far as load data it will not compare to what the ammo makers have on hand. Anyone can write or enter whatever they want to paper or computer without having the ability to back up their claim. Ammo makers will have what is needed and looked at as gospel in a court of law with regards to powder, primer, bullet type and weight and ALL the TEST DATA from firing
I also with all the care and diligence in reloading have had light loads and misfires. I have yet to have a misfire or light load with factory ammo.

Quote:
This has been discussed many times here. I think it will boils down to weather or not it was a good shoot...not so much what type of ammo. I reload and cannot make it anymore "deadly" as compared to factory ammo.
Are you willing to bet YOUR life on a possible 25-life. Not me
I would hope that just about any of us could afford to purchase factory ammo for SD carry
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:14 AM   #5
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I reload to save on range ammo. A box or two of factory SD ammo a year is off set by reloaded practice ammo.

I can reload pretty close to POA and felt recoil to my SD ammo. So I don't see the point.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:20 AM   #6
hanno
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I am an attorney (27 years) and have been both a prosecutor and defense counsel.

I reload for the range.

For carry, I use factory ammo.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:21 AM   #7
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I don't think there's a law per-se about not doing it (at least not in NY that I can find), it's just not a good idea. If it comes down to having to use it, and it comes out that home-loaded rounds were used, there's the bedtime story to scare all good little gun owners that some lawyer will push that 'excessive force' was used, i.e., you used too much gunpowder or some other alteration on your part that made the bullet 'more dangerous.' There's always going to be the debate whether all this is myth vs fact, but I feel, why really mess around with it on the chance it's true? Handload all your range ammo, but putting down a few bucks on store ammo for self defense just doesn't seem such like a major deal to take 'premeditation' out of the equation.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

This article touches on ammunition for self-defense, and has a short paragraph on handloading. The author of this article discourages it on the basis of reliability, which is another good point. I don't know how 'seriously' I would take the article, as some of it seems written as one man's opinion. There are other suggested readings on the legal end of defensive shooting and related things as well from a few more well-known sources, such as Mr. Ayoob.

Any homebrew on a defense gun probably just isn't a good idea; there's enough BS and red tape to jump through if you've got to defend yourself.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Are you willing to bet YOUR life on a possible 25-life. Not me
I would hope that just about any of us could afford to purchase factory ammo for SD carry
I would like to see some instances where someone involved in a good shoot was prosecuted for using reloads. I am certain there have been cases where someone did use their reloads in a SD situation. This has been discussed many times in detail. Personnaly, I do no use reloads for SD (I tend to have a slightly higher misfire rate as compared to factory)...
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:22 AM   #9
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I use reloads for HD and for practice, and I carry factory ammo. Generally.

I need to buy a box of .38 Specials because I have carried it once or twice with reloads that are loaded to the same specs as factory ammo (but I can't prove that last part, that's kind of the point.)

During a Zombie Apocalypse, all bets are off and I'll carry whatever I have -- probably reloads and .22LR.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:26 AM   #10
Don P
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Quote:
I would like to see some instances where someone involved in a good shoot was prosecuted for using reloads
Send a PM to Massad and ask him. He will take the time to answer your question about ammo.
My apologies as to Massad being listed in the members section. You can contact him at the http://www.ayoob.com/

He can also be reached here, http://www.backwoodshome.com/
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Last edited by Don P; May 27, 2011 at 11:38 AM.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:33 AM   #11
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If it's obviously a good shoot, it doesn't matter. If it's obviously a bad shoot it doesn't matter (you are screwed.)

The only place it gets interesting is when it's not clear either way and some forensics might help make a determination whether they prosecute or not.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:37 AM   #12
jrinne0430
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Quote:
Send a PM to Massad
I am quite familiar with Massad and his teachings but no case can be shown of any prosecution for a good shoot using reloads. Personally, I would recommend factory (as I stated prior) if for nothing else, reliability and peace of mind.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:37 AM   #13
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I wouldn't carry reloads either ....but in the event you are ever involved in a shooting ...its probably the least of your issues ....
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:40 AM   #14
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Been a handloader for 45 years, and carrying concealed on a CWL for 30 years and have NEVER carried handloads. JMHO but it's a bad idea.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:45 AM   #15
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I have sent a email off to Massad and awaiting a answer which when received I will post in full for all to read with regards to reloads for SD.
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Old May 27, 2011, 12:48 PM   #16
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Here's a question I don't think I've ever heard someone ask...

"What are the chances that anyone is even going to KNOW it's a reload, as long as you're using good quality bullets and polished "once-fired" brass?"

~LT
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Old May 27, 2011, 01:14 PM   #17
Daryl
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Massad and others have offered their advice on this many times in the past.

When I'm carrying specifically for defensive reasons, I stick with high quality factory fodder.

The trouble is, I usually carry for purposes other than self-defense. Sure, that same factory stuff will work fine for general purposes, but at a buck a round it's expensive. My handloads are far cheaper to shoot at a ground squirrel, jackrabbit, or a 'coon, and are of equal quality.

In the end, I don't worry about it too much. In town, I carry factory stuff. out of town and around the home place, I carry whatever works.

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Old May 27, 2011, 01:52 PM   #18
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Hasnt Ayoob stated a number of times that while it might come up in court, its not that big a deal and easily nullified?

Ive read lot of his stuff over the years, and I dont remember him putting to much behind it, other than it would probably be easier overall, if you didnt go there.


Quote:
Here's a question I don't think I've ever heard someone ask...

"What are the chances that anyone is even going to KNOW it's a reload, as long as you're using good quality bullets and polished "once-fired" brass?"
Ive often wondered the same thing. I have reloads you cant tell from factory, and Im sure no one else would either, unless they pulled them apart.


I personally use my reloads for practice, and use basically what law enforcement carries in the caliber of choice. I normally dont have any issues with my reloads, and if anything, Ive had more troubles with factory, but I dont have all the research and money dumped into them that Federal, Speer, Winchester, etc, do, so Ill pay a little more for their efforts there. Besides, more often than not, you cant get the bullets you'd want to use anyway.
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Old May 27, 2011, 01:58 PM   #19
SRH78
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There is nothing "wrong" with carrying reloads but using factory ammo is one less thing to worry about when dealing with our less than perfect legal system.

For me, this is one of the nice things about owning a revolver. I can buy a box of factory ammo, fire a few shots to verify POI, and not worry about whether it will feed reliably. All I normally shoot are handloads whether in the woods or at the range. I have plenty of faith in my handloads. The only reason I even own factory ammo is because I don't have the same faith in prosecutors or jury members who may be anti-gun.
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Old May 27, 2011, 02:00 PM   #20
JerryM
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Although I am not at present I have in the past carried with reloads. The main reason I am not at present has nothing to do with Ayoob type teachings, but I think that the premium factory loads are better than I can load so I carry the LE Winchester and Federal.

As far as I am concerned the writers need something to write about and the instructors parrot what they say.
I would not hesitate to carry my reloads, and the lawyers and instructors can eat cake.

Regards,
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Old May 27, 2011, 02:09 PM   #21
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Some guns, yes. If the gun is typically stored with reloads (any of my .45 Colts) I don't buy speshul ammo for them.

There are some others I typically use with factory loads, but if Ive taken 'em out to shoot with reloads, they may stay loaded with them until it's convenient to swap the ammo out.
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Old May 27, 2011, 02:20 PM   #22
buck460XVR
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I haven't bought factory ammo for my handguns in years. If and when I ever need to shoot someone in SD and it's a legitimate shoot, ammo will have no bearing. If it's not a clean shoot, shame on me...... regardless of Ammo.
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Old May 27, 2011, 02:51 PM   #23
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No. Not worth the legal risk.

As others have pointed out. Massad Ayoob has been an expert witness, so I'd take his word. Not to mention the attorney who posted in this thread.

Just from the standpoint of intent, it shows intent to some extent that I bought ammo that was marketed for defense.

Lastly, no reloader likes to admit this, but I can probably not produce such consistently good ammo as a well-equipped ammo factory. I can make hundreds or even thousands of rounds without any problems. But an ammo factory can make millions between duds. Mine are more accurate, because they're custom-made for my guns. Bet more reliable? Probably not.
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Old May 27, 2011, 03:39 PM   #24
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This is an issue that crops up regularly around here. If you dig around in Law and Civil Rights, you can find it discussed in some detail.

I'm an attorney (former criminal defense attorney, currently city attorney and (traffic court) prosecutor). Would I carry handloads for SD? Not just no, but hell no.

It's a simple matter of risk assessment. In order for handloads to be an issue: (1) you have to have handloads in your gun; (2) you have to shoot someone; (3) you have to be charged with an offense; (4) you have to raise self-defense in your own defense. The odds of all of those happening are somewhat slim. The stakes, on the other hand, could potentially include hundreds of thousands of dollars and decades in prison. I'll spend a few extra bucks on my carry ammo, thank you.

There's no law (to my knowledge) against using handloads/reloads for SD. So no, AFAIK, no one's ever been convicted for using handloads. That's a red herring. Don't follow it.

There's also no caselaw that I've ever been able to locate on the issue. However, you've got to keep in mind that for me to find the caselaw: (1) the handloads have to have been an issue; (2) the defendant has to have lost (b/c the state rarely gets to appeal); and (3) it has to be a reported decision (not all decisions are reported). So the absence of caselaw doesn't necessarily tell us that it's never come up. It just tells is that it hasn't come up in such a way that it became an appellate decision of precedential value.

Now, with all of that said, here's an article by Massad Ayoob regarding the the case of Daniel Bias: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n26806104/

Edited to add: In the thread, "Court Case Evidence, found here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448754, I found where fiddletown (another lawyer on TFL) had posted a bunch of links to other threads where this issue was discussed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown
[1] The legal issues regarding the use of handloads for self defense have been discussed here. See:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423771

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391656

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394682

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397127

[2] If you're going to need to tell your story to a jury, in my view, certain types of modification, basically things like disabling a safety device, could make things tougher for you. These issues have been discussed at great length on this board. See the following threads:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=372759

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=366434

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=388901

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?p=3586536

Last edited by Spats McGee; May 27, 2011 at 03:50 PM.
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Old May 27, 2011, 04:48 PM   #25
Daryl
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Quote:
The main reason I am not at present has nothing to do with Ayoob type teachings, but I think that the premium factory loads are better than I can load so I carry the LE Winchester and Federal.
I have several boxes of factory loaded Federal 155 gr HST for my .40 S&W. I also have a few hundred rounds of handloaded ammo that utilized Speer's excellent 165 gr Gold Dot bullets. Both feed flawlessly through my G23, and any slight difference in accuracy goes to the handloaded Gold Dots.

Quote:
Lastly, no reloader likes to admit this, but I can probably not produce such consistently good ammo as a well-equipped ammo factory. I can make hundreds or even thousands of rounds without any problems. But an ammo factory can make millions between duds. Mine are more accurate, because they're custom-made for my guns. Bet more reliable? Probably not.
I'm curious about your statement. Mine are consistently accurate, and consistently reliable. If anything, I put more attention into my relatively few rounds that I load than the big manufacturers possibly could. I've had occasional duds with factory ammo, and none with my handloads.

And that's something, considering the number of handloads I shoot in comparison to factory stuff. I load for every centerfire cartridge I shoot, and I have guns that have never had a factory round through them.

In my mind, there are reasons for using factory ammo for self-defense. All of them have to do with the CYA line of thought in a folow-up investigation and resulting court battle.

Never in my life have I doubted the capabilities, accuracy, or reliability of my handloads. If loaded correctly, there's absolutely no reason why handloaded ammo isn't just as good as factory, and is oft-times better.

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