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Old June 11, 2011, 08:31 AM   #51
Rugerismisticness
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I don't think you can go wrong with 7 1/2shot, he'll either shat his pants or have a bunch of chicken pox marks.
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Old June 11, 2011, 09:31 AM   #52
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"Do you guys think about what the operating range of a shotgun is?"

No, I spend more time thinking about the ranges at which I'll operate a shotgun inside my house.

Because of that, I've chose No. 4 buck as my primary HD load. 27 pellets hold a center of mass pattern on the target at all distances at which I might encounter someone in my home.

If No 4 isn't enough for some reason, I have 5 rounds of S&B 00 buck, 12 pellets instead of the normal 9, in a butt cuff.
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Old June 11, 2011, 09:33 AM   #53
Rampant_Colt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugerismisticness
I don't think you can go wrong with 7 1/2shot, he'll either shat his pants or have a bunch of chicken pox marks
Using 7½ birdshot for SD is a lousy idea. Yes, you can go wrong! Chicken pox marks?? Surely you can't be serious. The thread topic is about using #1 and 0 buckshot, yet people keep chiming in with their clueless birdshot argument..
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Old June 11, 2011, 07:35 PM   #54
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I think the idea is that since at HD ranges the shot is not going to disperse significantly - that the column of shot is going to hit the intruder and bore through his body like an auger.

But that's not the case. It's not that the shot has or hasn't patterned out before impact - it's simply that the smaller shot doesn't penetrate. it doesn't matter if it is a "solid" column when it hits - it's just not going to go very deep.

Some have said that #2 Buck or smaller doesn't consistently penetrate to sufficient depth to reliably stop an attacker...

The thing about #4 penetrating so many layers of drywall... I am in a townhome. The choke point in my home is the staircase... if they stay downstairs - they can steal my TV and kitchen appliances and whatever, but if they come the stairs - that's where I would engage them. If I fire directly down the stairway - it probably will not involve anyone else's property unmless there is some crazy ricochete... but if I fire across the stairway - I am actually firing directly at the bedroom of the next unit over. So for instance if I fire directly out my dedroom door, there are 4 layers of drywall between the muzzle end of my shotgun and my neighbor. The way I think about this - I think about engaging an intruder where the line of fire doesn't cut across into the other units... But given that if I miss - the pellets are leaving my home one way or another - I'll choose #1 or #0 Buck over 4.

Although... #4 doesn't look that bad on the gelatin tests, but then someone pointed out that those blocks might not have been at the right temp since the calibration BB seemed to have penetrated so deep...
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Old June 11, 2011, 07:43 PM   #55
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00 buck because

when I shoot I am going to put a hole in him. there is no other reason for me to pull the trigger. yes, I use 3" 15 pellet 00 buck too so I can transfer every last bit for a little recoil on my side
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Old June 11, 2011, 08:13 PM   #56
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I think this argument is being overthought to the nth degree. Buckshot will do the trick, any of it. No.4 all the way to 000. I would use whatever I had left over from hunting and not think twice about it
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Old June 11, 2011, 11:08 PM   #57
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I have noticed that the advantage the Vang Comp System provides is most pronounced with higher pellet count rounds such as #1BK and 12P 00BK.

With a regular barrel I would get almost 14" patterns at 50' with such ammo.
With the VCS barrel I get sub 7" patterns or better at the same distance.
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Old June 12, 2011, 11:29 AM   #58
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Great StuntMan, except for one thing. You shouldn't WANT a 7" pattern at 50-feet! What is with you guys -- you don't know what a shotgun is for and how it is supposed to perform!? Crack open a book fellas instead of being impressed by overcoming the intent and design of a shotgun.

Oh, and don't be too impressed with a tight pattern -- it is from something called "choke" on the barrel.

Jeez boys...
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Old June 12, 2011, 11:50 AM   #59
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Quote:
Great StuntMan, except for one thing. You shouldn't WANT a 7" pattern at 50-feet! What is with you guys -- you don't know what a shotgun is for and how it is supposed to perform!? Crack open a book fellas instead of being impressed by overcoming the intent and design of a shotgun.

Oh, and don't be too impressed with a tight pattern -- it is from something called "choke" on the barrel.

Jeez boys...
You need a whole lotta schoolin' on the entire range of uses for the modern shotgun.

The shotgun developed from the ol' blunderbuss sort of uses. The versatility is why the blunderbuss type front loaders became the modern shot gun of today.

If you want to talk clay pigeon shootin', you need top address BigJimP, Zippy and oneounceload. Those guys will get you squared away with the 7 1/2 shot and patterning. But if you want to engage in big game hunting or HD/SD, you need to forget all of that stuff... And don't go advising folks to seek a wider pattern when they are discussing buckshot for big game and HD/SD. SMALLER PATTERNS ARE THE ONLY THING YOU SHOULD BE SEEKING!

YOU DO AIM FOR HD/SD if you want to make a true shot. You also need to realize that the only safe lead is lead that is stopped or significantly slowed by the warm squishy target. any that miss are COLLATERAL DAMAGE waiting to happen.

Point shooting is ONLY for wing sports and clay sports and the smallest of mammal game. For big game or HD/SD it is more accurately described as "swing shooting" which is also used in rifle uses.

Brent
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Old June 12, 2011, 12:55 PM   #60
Lee Lapin
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Crack open a book fellas instead of being impressed by overcoming the intent and design of a shotgun.

I've bought, cracked open and read/studied every book I could find on gunfighting with shotguns, bought most of the shotgun gunfighting videos and even gotten some actual training in the subject as well. I've even gone in harm's way with a shotgun a time or three.

And I LIKE TIGHT PATTERNS because they help me do what I want a fighting shotgun to do. That's not hit stuff I don't want hit, make big holes in targets, let in lots of daylight, let out lots of blood, disrupt important stuff inside the target and bring the proceedings to as sudden an end as possible.

You go for whatever level of performance you want in your shotgun/load combination, but please don't try to tell me or anyone else what we are supposed to want from ours... 'kay?

lpl

ETA - Range, fellas, range. Sheesh. Those gelatin shots are great but were taken at a range of 3 yards for the light pellets and 5 yards for the bigger Buckshot.

See http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%...%2023MAR11.pdf
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Last edited by Lee Lapin; June 12, 2011 at 01:08 PM.
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Old June 12, 2011, 01:15 PM   #61
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I'm with you on the tight patterns. I use full choke for everything
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Old June 12, 2011, 07:14 PM   #62
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Sorry, didn't understand at first that for HD we no longer point a shotgun but need take careful aim with effectively a big bullet, and we don't slap the trigger with both eyes open but take a proper position, get a cheek weld, sight alignment, control our breath, squeeze the trigger like an eye-dropper, follow through...

No need to pick those descriptions apart; Training Counselors/Coaches/Instructors/practiced students get 'em.

And I wish we knew more about patterning for deer hunting BEFORE they named the damned stuff BUCKshot. What were the idiots thinking before sensitive tactical cops couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag, lawyers, and FliteControl* wads?

*Warning: LE ammo is NOT recommended for deer or bear hunting.
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Old June 12, 2011, 08:01 PM   #63
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Quote:
And I wish we knew more about patterning for deer hunting BEFORE they named the damned stuff BUCKshot.
I know enuff about buckshot to want a tight pattern to hit my future supper in a vital region without any pellets opening up the guts to taint my venison. I also do not care for excessive meat damage. A 14" maximum pattern gives me plenty of pellets to the vital zone without ripping into the backstraps or guts as a 30" pattern surely would do.

Quote:
Sorry, didn't understand at first that for HD we no longer point a shotgun but need take careful aim with effectively a big bullet,
Anything less accurate on your part could leave your target able to fight on while your lead payload soars through a wall or window on to points unknown... I do "point" to an extent... But only so far as I am still center of mass as the "effectively a big bullet" will likely do all I need if I am off by an inch or 3 in any direction... this goes back to Lee's description of light in, blood out and disruption of important anatomical processes.

Quote:
and we don't slap the trigger with both eyes open but take a proper position, get a cheek weld, sight alignment, control our breath, squeeze the trigger like an eye-dropper, follow through...
I never "slap" a trigger... I squeeze mine.
I can be deadly accurate from many positions but only due to the fact that me and this gun have been together for a long time and we have, jointly, made many piles of hulls. But a shoulder mount and consistent, repeatable cheek weld are my most accurate.

Quote:
What were the idiots thinking before sensitive tactical cops couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag, lawyers, and FliteControl* wads?
They were thinking that they ought to make do with what was available until advancements in technology made a better man stopper.
Even you can, in all your infinite wisdom, will agree that the old stuff was never called "manshot" and the new stuff will continue to be called "buckshot" due to pellet sizes used even though for long range deer hunting we choose a bit harder recoiling faster traveling payload.

Brent
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Old June 12, 2011, 08:14 PM   #64
Lee Lapin
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*Warning: LE ammo is NOT recommended for deer or bear hunting.

Sez who? I haven't heard that one before. The LE ammo I prefer to use (Federal's LE127 00) is a full velocity 9-pellet 1325 fps load, and given published information is apparently no different from Federal's PFC154 00 hunting load.

http://www.federalpremium.com/produc...ot.aspx?id=516

http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...lbuckshot.aspx

I can see not suggesting any reduced recoil buckshot load for hunting (I won't even use RR for HD given a choice), if that's the intention, but a blanket statement like the one quoted above is far too broad brush and without foundation as far as I can see.

lpl
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Old June 13, 2011, 04:36 PM   #65
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Ive never used #1 for self defense, but I have killed a fair # of deer with it. Before the the internet and any of us knew anything about ballistics gellatin we would put up a paper plate, back of twenty five or thirty yards and let fly. Whatever shot size and choke combo put the most pellets in that plate is what we hunted with. For my 2 3/4" chambered, 28 inch barreled, modified choke, 1100 it was Winchester #1 and #0.
On Actual flesh and bone I never saw ANY difference in pellet size. If the deer was close enough and the pellets struck a vital area, it died. PERIOD. Some died quicker than others. Pellets through the lungs were fatal but the sometimes the deer went a ways, break both shoulders or clip the spine and they piled up right there. If a deer was close enough we shot in the head. DRT. Hundreds of thousands of deer have been killed with 12, 16 and 20 gauges, with everything from #000 to #4, so common sense would tell you that at those sizes in the vitals would also be fatal to humans.
If it kept me awake at nights, I would get a target and see what shot best out of my scattergun at 15-20 yds. I would also actually learn how to shoot one.
The idea of aiming a shotgun defeats its purpose. Might as well use a carbine. IF your shotgun fits you correctly it should shoot where you look, whether the payload is #8 or #00 and the target is clay or flesh and bone. I assure you we were not "aiming" at those deer busting out of cover. We were looking intently where we wanted the pellets to go. The guys that couldnt hit anything had one eye closed and were "aiming". Gun fit and muscle memory are the only "sights" necessary on a shotgun.

Last edited by LSnSC; June 13, 2011 at 05:20 PM.
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Old June 13, 2011, 05:08 PM   #66
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It's a well known fact that after the invention of the internet anything smaller than 44 mag and 000 buck became about as effective as a paintball gun
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Old June 13, 2011, 05:25 PM   #67
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Quote:
I assure you we were not "aiming" at those deer busting out of cover. We were looking intently where we wanted the pellets to go.
That is what we called "swing shooting". And I know plenty of guys who pile up deer with rifles on the run too.

And there are times and places where I, personally, prefer to AIM my gun. Squirrel sitting still on a limb, feral cat squeaked to a halt... I am not fond of firing a second shot when one could be a clean kill. Why would a person "swing" on a stationary target?

An intruder gets what ever is in my gun at the time... I think I have #4 bird in it right now since I do not have any one job weapons. The snake is due for a squirrel and my dogs are quick to run them so I need the gun ready right now.

The buck I have here is only #3 but I will keep a tube full of 00 when I get a 12 gauge to add to my meager but capable "arsenal"...
Brent

Last edited by hogdogs; June 13, 2011 at 05:31 PM.
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Old June 13, 2011, 06:34 PM   #68
Gehrhard
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Holy smoke, you don't even have a 12 ga. and have been going on and on here? LOL

I gotta hand it to ya brother -- I don't know which was more odd: posting or admitting you are a 20 ga. shooter.

Not that I'm nocking everything you, or anyone (everyone?), say. I'm not.

Gehr
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Old June 13, 2011, 06:45 PM   #69
hogdogs
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I am just a frugal man... Spartan, utilitarian actually. That 20 was bought with short barrel intended for my wife. She won't practice but every year or so she has me walk her thru the functions. She will use it if needed.

I went years with very little (literally) in the way of home defense following a burglary that cost me all of my firearms including the 20 gauge.

I got it back 11 years later from the city PD where I lived at time of theft.

The 20 does anything I need it to do. It has been really tuff to justify a new gun to myself. I now have my heart set on a new Mossberg 930 auto loader in blue and walnut with 26 inch barrel. If I ever get that, it will always have 00 in it or very near it.

Brent
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Old June 13, 2011, 06:52 PM   #70
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Never heard of "swing shooting". Sure you're not thinking of wingshooting? Swing has little to do with it. A shotgun should hit where you are looking. Doesn't matter if the target is moving or still.
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Old June 13, 2011, 07:00 PM   #71
hogdogs
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Actually the closest I seen to that term in print was in the June 2011 NRA American Hunter mag and they are writing about rifle shooting at running game as "swing through".

So if you see a bunny or squirrel stationary, you just swing the gun up and fire?

Is that 100% hit rate? My method is but we are now far from the topic of #1 buck for HD... Someone care to start a thread here or in hunting regarding the art of the mount and fire techniques?

As I said, I am frugal... I do not wing shoot game birds as the cost per pound/meal is too high with practice and hunt ammo costs.

Brent
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Old June 13, 2011, 09:53 PM   #72
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I picked up Remington HD 12ga 2x4 2 3/4in. @ 1250fps. They were 10count/box for a lot of dough and 5count/box Winchester Supreme 00 buck 3in @1450fps were about $6.50.
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Old June 13, 2011, 10:19 PM   #73
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A lot of very interesting discussion on this topic, hmmmm...

Instead of giving the link to Wakeman's opinions I am going to post the link to the Firearms Tactical Institute finding which Wakeman references.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

And if you want to read what Randy Wakeman says on the subject:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm
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Old June 14, 2011, 06:20 AM   #74
LSnSC
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Were getting off topic here, but I mount my shotgun focus on my target and shoot. If the target is moving so is my gun. I actually dont have a bead on the two shotguns I shoot the most. They are nothing more than a distraction for your eyes, IMO.
The shotgun goes to where you are looking. The mount and move should be smooth so that your eyes never come off the target. With practice your hands will move to where your eyes are looking. It does not matter if the target is stationary or moving.
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Old June 14, 2011, 08:14 AM   #75
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Quote:
Were getting off topic here, but I mount my shotgun focus on my target and shoot. If the target is moving so is my gun. I actually dont have a bead on the two shotguns I shoot the most. They are nothing more than a distraction for your eyes, IMO.
The shotgun goes to where you are looking. The mount and move should be smooth so that your eyes never come off the target. With practice your hands will move to where your eyes are looking. It does not matter if the target is stationary or moving.
True dat. Shotguns are point and shoot. The only time a shotgun trigger should be squeezed is if its on a rifled barrel with a slug, and technically you have a rifle at that point. You don't sight a shotgun otherwise.

I'd be inclined to take frugal shotgunner's with a grain of salt. Too much read theory and not enough real life practice. Personally, the only time I mount the gun is on target aquisition, then its point fire and pick up the dead shtuff.
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