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Old May 29, 2011, 10:32 PM   #26
Doc Intrepid
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I use slugs for HD.

Slugs out of my Remington 1100 will not penetrate the walls of my brick house.

Don't ask me how I know this.

Your mileage may definitely vary...
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Old May 29, 2011, 10:46 PM   #27
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OP asked about home defense. In most rooms of my house the pellets will still remain an almost solid column of lead less than an inch in diameter. Birdshot, 4B, 1B, OOB probably won't make much difference indoors but I'm going with OOB because overpenetration is not an issue and a shot out or thru either door isn't out of the question.
If I lived in an appartment I'd lean towards #9 birdshot. In my little spot on the prairie it's OOB with two slugs on the buttstock. YMMV
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Old May 30, 2011, 10:46 AM   #28
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`for you 20 gaugers

·number 2 buck is available, but you will progably have to go online to find it. It shoots very smothly in my semi-auto and doesn`t kick to bad in my pump.
20 gauge also has some devastating slug rounds. They are the pricey sabot types, but you are not going to shoot many for HD.
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Old June 7, 2011, 03:12 PM   #29
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Because of age (61), surgeries, (total shoulder replacement), and infirmities (arthritis) I can no longer manage the heavy recoil of a 12ga. My wife (62) never could handle a 12ga; but continues to upland hunt with a 20ga. At present we have three shotguns available for home defense......
• 16ga SxS loaded with Federal® 2¾" #1 Buckshot (#F164-1B)
• 20ga SxS loaded with Remington® 2¾" #3 Buckshot(#SP-20-3BK)
• 20ga pump loaded with Federal® 2¾" #2 Buckshot (#F207-2B)
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Old June 7, 2011, 06:28 PM   #30
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The idea really isn't about over-penetration, it's about creating he most perforations of vital tissue - Sixteen holes to a depth of 14"

Which is more than a slug - (1 hole not counting the wad), 8 wound channels for #000 Buck, 9 to 12 for #00 Buck...
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Old June 7, 2011, 10:43 PM   #31
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if its not broken, don't fix it

00 buck - Why? answer: why not
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Old June 8, 2011, 08:52 AM   #32
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Correct answer: because #0 Buck (.32 caliber) at 45 yards arguably all the way down to #2 Shot (.15 caliber) at less than 15 yards is actually more effective -- higher liklihood of hits, and more of them, with required penetration.

I KNOW it is just easier to say "umm, 00 Buck" than understand power, range, penetration, wound channels and stopping capability.
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Old June 8, 2011, 11:10 AM   #33
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that made me laugh

I don't suppose it would help that I only use 3" 00 buck(winchester or federal)?
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Old June 8, 2011, 12:49 PM   #34
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This sounds a bit like 9mm vs .40 vs .45.

As many others have stated, I'm a big fan of the Federal FliteControl 00 Buck ammo. I love the predictability and control it gives me. I like the reduced recoil load a bit more for follow-up shots.

I've been patterning it out of my defensive shotguns for some time now and have been nothing but impressed.
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Old June 8, 2011, 01:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
The Firearms Tactical Institute reports:

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.
I think I've seen some gelatin tests that show penetration of lead BB out to 14 - maybe he means all of the pellets don't make it 14" #4 Buck seems to go 14" Here are the jello tests:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
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Old June 8, 2011, 07:52 PM   #36
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Range, fellas, range. Sheesh. Those gelatin shots are great but were taken at a range of 3 yards for the light pellets and 5 yards for the bigger Buckshot. Do you guys think about what the operating range of a shotgun is? Again, not knowing, you'd have to conclude you'd want #1 or 0 Buckshot.

That is unless you are after a buck or bear...
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Old June 8, 2011, 08:12 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lead head
Peter Hathaway Capstick was writing about this back in the 70's for Guns & Ammo. I believe his book, Last Horizons is the one with great info regarding buckshot. #1 buck is the way to go.
IIRC, Capstick swore by #1 buckshot for hunting leopards in rough brush
My big gripe with #1 buck is recoil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave McC
#1 buck seems to be where the lines cross on the graph for pellet size and quantity. I've yet to find a load, however, that patterns as tightly as my pet 00 rounds. If and when I find one, I may switch. Meanwhile, I'll continue with "Old" Estate 00 R/R.....
Estate RR 00 buck threw magnificent paterns from my IC 870 Express! Then one day it disappeared from the Natchez catalog..
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Old June 8, 2011, 10:10 PM   #38
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RC, I still have close to a case of "Old" Estate 00 left. Sorry, not interested in sharing.
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Old June 8, 2011, 10:48 PM   #39
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I'm not talking 3 yards though the distance is possible
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Old June 9, 2011, 03:30 AM   #40
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COuntZerO

"I think I've seen some gelatin tests that show penetration of lead BB out to 14 - maybe he means all of the pellets don't make it 14" #4 Buck seems to go 14" Here are the jello tests:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958 "

You need to look at the calibration BB on those tests. It should penetrate 3.34 inches. You'll see the BB in these blocks is anywhere from 4.5 to 6 inches. This is a sign they used the blocks at too warm a temperature or they are not a 10 percent mix. You can easily deduct 20% at minimum from these penetration numbers. Some cases it's much more.
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Old June 9, 2011, 11:18 AM   #41
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"My big gripe with #1 buck is recoil."

The felt recoil is lower with #0 Buckshot which is the icing on the cake -- my "if there must be only one."

"Based on a 7 lb. shotgun, the Remington #0 Buck Loads generates 27.4 ft. lbs. of recoil, while the #1 Buck factory loads generate 31.8 ft. lbs of recoil. This roughly 15% reduction in recoil may sway you to the Remington #0 load on the basis of comfort and controllability."
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Old June 9, 2011, 02:05 PM   #42
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Ya'll must have some long hallways. The biggest room in my house is 24'X18', take into account the furniture at walls or furthest shot I could concievably make and its going to come out at about 4-6 yards at most. Now taken into account that I routinely kill most birds at 40 yards the pattern on my shotgun with say a #5 High brass at those distances in my home is pretty tight to the point all shot from the pattern is usually concentrated into an 8" or less circle.

I have plenty of buckshot in all sizes from 000 to #4 from 2 3/4" to 3 1/2" but for HD, I'm grabbing my SXS or OU and the #5's or if I don't want to take the chance of lead shot on future lawsuit should the individual live maybe some heavy shot. I'll let the surgeons figure out how to deal with the hamburger it makes and how to get all the lead out.

Or one could go with the old cut shell instead.
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Old June 9, 2011, 03:18 PM   #43
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I think you could pick just about any of the buckshot loads from #4 to 000 and be OK. There are more important factors...like practicing!
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Old June 9, 2011, 03:30 PM   #44
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Quote:
typical shotgun engagement distances
Can anyone please define what exactly these distances are?

And how does reduced recoil 00 buck fare at these distances for penetration? How about reduced recoil slug?
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Old June 9, 2011, 03:38 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltydog235
I have plenty of buckshot in all sizes from 000 to #4 from 2 3/4" to 3 1/2" but for HD, I'm grabbing my SXS or OU and the #5's or if I don't want to take the chance of lead shot on future lawsuit should the individual live maybe some heavy shot. I'll let the surgeons figure out how to deal with the hamburger it makes and how to get all the lead out.

Or one could go with the old cut shell instead.
Your reasoning makes no sense to me as to why you wouldn't use the #4 buckshot that you have on hand. Don't kid yourself, tiny little #5 birdshot pellets do not have the sectional density necessary to penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs, and an O/U shotgun sounds like just as bad an idea. How long are the barrels?

A 'cut shell'? If you're suggesting the dangerous practice of cutting the shell just above the brass, you're asking for trouble and passing along information that could potentially get someone injured. It will probably bulge the barrels of your O/U on the very first shot; and i'm assuming the O/U is a fine quality shotgun

This thread topic is about #1 buckshot, not another pointless birdshot -vs- buckshot argument. If you mistakenly choose to load your defensive shotguns with birdshot that's fine and dandy; just don't insist others make the same mistake as you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gehrhard
"My big gripe with #1 buck is recoil."

The felt recoil is lower with #0 Buckshot which is the icing on the cake -- my "if there must be only one."

"Based on a 7 lb. shotgun, the Remington #0 Buck Loads generates 27.4 ft. lbs. of recoil, while the #1 Buck factory loads generate 31.8 ft. lbs of recoil. This roughly 15% reduction in recoil may sway you to the Remington #0 load on the basis of comfort and controllability."
I use reduced recoil 00 and 000 buckshot
(got a great deal on some Fiocchi RR 00 buck that throws decent patterns)
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Old June 10, 2011, 08:18 AM   #46
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Heck no I don't advocate the use of a cut shell in any instance. And yes most of my guns are of the finer variety or at least not junk. It was a joke to see if anyone would respond and it looks like it got some interest from people that had never heard of it.

As to the buck vs bird arguement, I use buckshot to kill deer in the woods while the dogs are running them or on a hog that I jump moving through the swamp. However the shot charge of a high brass #5 at a range of 4 to 6 yards is absolutely lethal. I don't really care what others choose to do as I don't plan on too many home invasions in the near future. If someone decides to break in, I'll hit em with the shot or go to a .40, 45, .44, .41, .38, .45LC or any of the other 20 or so pistols that I own.

Another thing 2 years ago I shot a sow while we were duck hunting with a 3" Kent Matrix #5, she was about 5 yards from me. There was massive cranial evacuation and instant death. Don't tell me about penetration or your geletan tests or the physics of your paper calculations. I did a feild experiment on a live animal with finite, destructive results. Cranial mist with bone and teeth fragments all over the place. I think every pellet in the load hit it, about 1.5oz or so of shot. The piglets I hit with a boat paddle, we have a hog problem around here.
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Old June 10, 2011, 08:47 AM   #47
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Brave man.

Last edited by Gehrhard; June 10, 2011 at 08:59 AM.
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Old June 10, 2011, 09:11 AM   #48
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Buckshot and the shotgun in general

There has been mention of gelatin testing. Humans and gelatin are very different. Gelatin doesnt behave like a human torso or a human head on impact. Still, gelatin is an interesting test median.

The shotgun in generaL is the ultimate smootbore combat tool. The shotgun is the ultimate musket. Usually very large caliber, and it throws multiple projectiles or one single huge mass. IT can also be stuffed with a variety of special purpose cartridges. Shotguns can be well adapted to almost any combat problem or tactic with the exception of long distance sniping.

Home defense presents many things to consider. Home defense mostly will take place indoors; however; the outdoor terrain for home defense is not out of the question. Outdoor HD is likely to be short range with bystander and adjacent property and houses at risk of being struck.

If you fire any firearm inside of a house, there is a risk of hitting someone on the other side of a soft, easily penetrated sheetrock wall. Sleeping children, the wife, other family members, etc. You also run the risk of the projectile passing through the structure and traveling outside to hit neighboring residences, etc, etc.

Lets be real here. The shotgun, loaded with ANYTHING will definitely stop or kill a human being at 10 feet. Even #12 micro fine bird shot will kill someone at 10 feet. Load your shells with chicken feed and they will kill a man at 10 feet.

For home defense, consider a payload that will destroy the attacker, but not easily kill anyone in the next room, let alone travel outside of the structure to hit the neighbors houses.

The 20 gauge shotgun loaded with number three buckshot is something a wife can be trained to handle most effectively. The 20 bore with threes will do the job and significantly reduce the risks of killing someone in the next room. Recoil is manageable for someone with a lighter frame, such as a woman. Outside the house, at 25 feet, threes will kill a human being instantly at 10 or 15 feet and there is no question about it at all.

For the 12 bore shooter, when you load with number four buckshot, it is a seriously effective weapon in many tactical situations. The 3 inch mag shell will put 41 .25 caliber balls simultaneously into a target at speeds well beyond what many large bore pistol loads will be traveling. A submachinegun cant do that. Yet the #4 balls will slow down significantly if they pass through a wall. Even using the smaller 2.75 inch shell will still give you 27 balls on the target at great velocities. Like hitting them with a hailstorm of lead with a single pull of the trigger.

Large buckshot can be somewhat unpredictable. 000 buckshot seems to have a mind of it's own because of the way it travels up the barrell of the shotgun. Those projectiles are heavy and they will slam through walls and doors with enough energy to kill whatever it finds on the other side. Often the balls arrive on target with a mottling of mixed energy transmission, and who can call 000 a "pattern" really? There are not enough projectiles, really.

Single "0" and 1 are more efficient in the way they load into the cartridge and travel up the barrell and arrive on target. If you are in a patrol situation where distances are increased from the home defense field, you can get more striking energy at greater distances with these loads, as opposed to number 4 or number 3, because the pellets are heavier in "0" and 1.

The FBI shotgun studies actually indicate number 4 buck to be their reccomendation for a variety of reasons. The transfer of energy being their primary reason. I am using number 4 buck in a coach gun for home defense. I chose number 4buck partly on what I learned from the FBI study and a number of experiments I did on the range with a variety of loads.

Number 4 buck patterns evenly and has some serious velocity. 4 buck has numerous projectiles to increase the likeliehood of a one-shot stop. I chose the hammerless coach gun because it has no noisy slide or noisy bolt to operate to get the gun into action. I can sit silently in the shadows and not give away my position, yet I can still fire the gun without creating any noise to prepare the gun. Granted, there is only two shots, but I have a pistol as well. Both the coach gun and pistol sit nicely under the bed. Both are small. Both are easy to handle and quick to deploy.

If you really want to hit an intruder hard, pull both triggers on the coach gun at the same time! Makes for a hell of bang and a huge lead storm on the target.
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Old June 10, 2011, 09:33 AM   #49
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Just for fun, here's the link to the results of shotgun testing at the famous Box O Truth website: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

In summary, at a distance of 12 feet from the muzzle to the first layer of drywall:

Remington 2 3/4", #4 Buck with 27 pellets penetrated six layers of drywall and bounced off the seventh.

Winchester 2 3/4", #1 Buck with 16 pellets penetrated six layers of drywall and bounced off the seventh.

Remington 2 3/4", 00 Buck with 9 pellets penetrated seven layers of drywall, three pellets went through the eigth layer of drywall, and one pellet was stuck in the 9th drywall board.

Remington "Slugger", 1 ounce, Max load, 2 3/4", "rifled" slugs penetrated all twelve layers of drywall in the Box O Truth.

In previous Box O Truth tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

I love this line from the shotgun test results summary:

Quote:
I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels. Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.


As others have pointed out, the properties of the human body, as related to penetration by ammunition, are different from those of drywall. However, the Box O Truth serves as a useful demonstration of what could happen if you miss a human body with a shot from your home defense gun of choice ... or the extent of what could potentially happen if your round passes through a human body and continues on.
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Old June 10, 2011, 10:11 AM   #50
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1 buck seems to be where the lines cross on the graph for pellet size and quantity. I've yet to find a load,however, that patterns as tightly as my pet 00 rounds. If and when I find one, I may switch. Meanwhile, I'll continue with "Old" Estate 00 R/R..... copied from post #8

How tight do you want a pattern at 12 or 15 FEET?? or 7 FEET?
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