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Old May 26, 2011, 04:50 PM   #1
Ervin
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1,000 yd shooting

I hear you cant go wrong with a 175 SMK flying at 2600-2700fps.
2,700fps out of a 30-06 is fine with me, and its pretty close to what my loads have been for a while now.

The problem is prepping the rifle for those distances. The rifle is a 1903 Springfield, rear sight drifts along a ladder = no clicks or increments whatsoever (only old range markings as a referance)

I've run into some info claiming that a min MV of 2,600fps will have 40 MOA drop at 1K, and to prep a rifle for that range you could get a 100yd zero that shoots 40in high.
If this is true, my rifle will hit somewhere on the 6 sq. foot frame after a wind estimation offcourse.
How accurate is this method and does anyone use it?

Also...is there a formula for drop based on muzzle velocity?

I might want to increase the bullet charge to get 2750-2800fps to reduce the effects of wind deflection by a few percent.
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Old May 26, 2011, 06:02 PM   #2
chadstrickland
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Try www.jbmballistics.com..and go from there lol...all I can tell u bud
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Old May 26, 2011, 06:46 PM   #3
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As always, it depends. Depends on which sight your O3 has, what ranges is it marked for? My suggestion if you don't mind the money is to buy a Williams match sight for it. I don't think I would make the ammo any faster than it is, 2700 fps is about as accurate as you can get with that bullet and that rifle.
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Old May 26, 2011, 08:20 PM   #4
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I've never thought about doing it that way, but yes, Theoretically zeroing 40 inches high at 100 yards should get you exactly where you should be at 1000 yards assuming you math is correct... It makes sense to me.
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Old May 26, 2011, 08:44 PM   #5
Jim Watson
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I shoot a .308 with 175 gr SMK at 2700 fps or so.
The "come up" from 100 to 1000 yards is about 35 moa. If velocity is lower, it could be as much as 40 moa. The JBL site will tell you.
So set it a yard high at 100 and you should be close at 1000, if your target is well enough defined.

Back when the 1903 was shot seriously, they made little micrometer adjusters for the ladder sight so you could make finer adjustments than the hardball range markings allowed. But they are themselves collectors items now.
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Old May 26, 2011, 09:03 PM   #6
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Here's a thought

A friend of mine has a beautiful 03A3 with the sights you are talking about. He found out the sight on his was a Lyman. He contacted Lyman about what range they were zeroed for and asked about the adjustment clicks. They sent him an "old manual" for the sights and he was then able to zero it for many different ranges.

Hope this helps.
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Old May 26, 2011, 09:05 PM   #7
Ervin
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Grump, at the moment its a .10 peep (my long range drift slide) I dont plan on mounting any match sights on this rifle and increasing the sight radius. Has to be grunt grade.

From what I saw on that website, it cleared up all other questions I had.
416in of bullet drop is about 40 MOA for a 100yd zero.

According to those stats, at 1K, 1 MPH of wind (full value) was approx. 1 MOA of deflection (for a bullet that was 1118 fps at that range)
Does anyone else's math say the same?

Last edited by Ervin; May 26, 2011 at 09:38 PM.
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Old May 27, 2011, 06:06 AM   #8
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Wind: Speed, Direction, and Value. Also, see 'British Wind Rule".

I've seen zero wind conditions out to 1,000 yards, not often but more than once, and guns set on mechanical zero miss at extended distances. The same rifle, set on mechanical zero, hits its mark @ 500 or even 700 yards, but does not hit at 900 or 1,000. Some rifles need wind adjustments dialed-in on the gun, despite the abscense of wind, to establish mechanical zero; especially at longer distances. Bedding has a lot to due with this issue.

As for elevation: @ 1,000 yards, with 308 Fed. GM 175, I have a 6 moa difference from <45 degree F to >95 degree F. In brief, @1,000, if I dial in my winter elevation of 42 moa and what I really needed was a summer 36 moa, then with all else being equal, my two dollar bullet just sailed 60 inches over the target. (6 moa @ 100yrds is 6" of change, right, so 6 moa @1000yrds is 60 inches of change)

It is much eaiser to nail those 1,000 yard targets with a keyboard then it is with a bullet. Have fun.
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Old May 27, 2011, 08:19 AM   #9
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I built a Model 70 Vietnam Era Sniper rifle that I shoot at 1000 yard matches.

Using the 175 SMK w/a muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS, sighted in at 100 yards, it drops 30.5 inches at 1000.

I was just checking some old score books using a M14 Service Rifle in HP, including 1000 yard matches.

At 200 yards, my zero is 12 clicks up. At 1000 its 48 clicks up (one min. clicks). That with a 175 @ 2500 fps or so MV. Thats 36 MOA difference.

One thing you need to put in the equation is that if one shoots a 6 o'clock hold then @ 200 yards your point of aim is about 3 min below your point of impact where as on the 1000 yard target your point of aim is about 2 min below the point of impact (meaning you aim at the bottom of the black the bullet will hit 2 or 3 minutes high.

So basically I think the 40 MOA sight change from 100 to 1000 should get you on paper. Take into account the temperature difference. Consider that for ever 15 degree change in temp, you impact will be 1 MOA off. You sight your rifle in at 1000 yards when its 40 degrees in the spring, then you go to a late summer match where its 80 degrees you're gonna shoot about 2-3 min lower.

Also, as I've seen some inexperienced shooters do, getting ready for a match, take their ammo out of the stool and lay it on the mat so they can get to it, they also lay it in the sun where it heats up, like most metal, sometimes almost getting too hot to handle with bare hands, think what that does to your impact.

Something else that needs to be taken into account, just about every rifle, even high dollar target rifles have "dead spots' in their sights. Meaning that you normally have one minute per click, as you count up you have a dead spot, where the tiny treads on the sights skip, meaning when you click it doesn't move. You need to know this. Putting a dial indicator on your sight, and counting up will show this. (How many have used a dial indicator to tell how much your rear sight moves.

An example the M1 has a 28 inch sight radius. Meaning for ever 1 MOA movement you move the sight .0077 inches. The 1917 Enfield has a sight radius of 31.5 inches, each 1 MOA of movement on the target means the sight moves .00875.

So if you have a dead spot, you're gonna be off 1 MOA or 10 inches at 1000 yards. Use a dial indicator to find if you have dead spots.

Anyway, 40 minutes should get you on paper. The above is why its so critical to keep a data or score book, recording every shot fired.

As to adding Williams sights on an unmodified 1903, I think there is a special spot in shooter's hell for those people. There are getting less and less "as issued" un-modified Springfield's out there. The sights are calibrated for the military ammo used at the time period the rifle was made. If you load your ammo to match, your sights will work.

Play with your ballistic calculators, its fun, may get you close, but nothing beats taking the rifle out and shooting it. Recording every shot you fire and in ever environment you shoot that round in. That and only that will tell you what your rifle will do, the data or history of past shots will give you an indication of what your rifle/ammo will do the next time you shoot.
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Old May 27, 2011, 03:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Grump, at the moment its a .10 peep (my long range drift slide) I dont plan on mounting any match sights on this rifle and increasing the sight radius. Has to be grunt grade.
That's why I said it depends. I don't know what class you are shooting in or if this is just chuckles and giggles shooting. I have fired with both military ladder sight and done fairly well and with match sights and done very well but I was shooting in competition with shooters who took their 600 and 1000 yard shooting seriously. A young teenager named Tubbs and his brother and father come to mind. It was humbling to have a kid 10 years younger than me shooting to my right beat the pants off of me but it was good experience to. Every time his old man yelled at the kid I was paying attention.

Right now I am shooting my brothers 1941 Service grade M1 Garand in competition and no match sights allowed. Was kind of hinky from being used to 1/8 and 1/4 min sight adjustments to 1 min sight adjustments. Got the windage in but am having a fine old time with elevation. I'm using 1951 milsurp ammo and while most of it is good some of it isn't and that complicates things. If I could use my match ammo life would be so much simpler but that would defeat the purpose of the match. Sigh. If I could use my own M1 Garand life would be simpler but having been converted to .308 took it out of specs for the match, double sigh.

You numbers are good from what my old notes say. My match grade bullets are 178 gr Hornady BTHP and the factory loads are supposed to be 2760, I load to 2700 and can tell no difference. (bolt gun)

My hunting bullets are 180 gr Remington Core-Lokts and commercial loads claim 2700 fps. I load to 2600 and get max accuracy, any hotter and my groups open up. That could just be my rifle. You won't know till you load a few and try them. Rule of thumb for every gun I have is my accurate loads are near but just below max loads.

When I finish this I am going out again and shoot up some more of that old ammo. I'm trying to get it gone so I can use the newer 30 year old stuff. So far my match targets are embarrassing. Good groups but not where they are supposed to be.
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Old May 27, 2011, 07:08 PM   #11
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I got a chance to shoot 1000 with my M-14 and M118 this spring. 600 yard zero was 33 click up, 1000 was 54 up, so a 10.5 minute difference between those two lines. Not that much needed probably, I was a 6 hold at 600 and a frame hold with a line of berm at 1000.

Now I struggled this spring at 600, I think my best was in the high 160s. Now how then can I go over to 1000 and shoot a 179??? I'm going to re-barrel the rifle just to make the shooter's head work better but :banghead: damn that has me mad still.
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Old May 28, 2011, 04:58 AM   #12
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My Data Book has reliable elevation settings from 100yrds out to 1,000yrds, in 50 yard increments, under for different temperature scales. I thought I was special until a former Palma Team Captain, now just a Palma Team contestant, rolled-up next to me and read my data book with his eyes closed. Some of his estimates were a few moa different, but I’d still have been on paper with his estimates dialed on my gun. 308 Winchester is predictable. The British Wind Rule has yet to fail me using Fed. GM 175 grain.
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Old May 29, 2011, 10:36 AM   #13
kraigwy
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The National Target Company sells a target getting sight settings for the M1 to 1000 yards by sighting it in at 50 yards. I've played with these and they are quite accurate.

http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bi...egory_Code=SST
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Old June 1, 2011, 02:53 AM   #14
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I've seen manufactures printing tables on targets and on ammo boxes; never been impressed.

A head or tail wind, humidity, temperature swings, barrel length, and the slope of the scope on the rifle or iron sight target height...too many variables. Before anyone recommends moa adjustments for another they better have some inside information.

A 2 moa incorrect calculation @ ~800 to 1,000 yards and your spotter will describe your miss in feet units. And remember, we are talking just about gravity come-ups. How would you like changing wind conditions coming from your left?
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Old June 1, 2011, 08:34 AM   #15
kraigwy
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Quote:
I've seen manufactures printing tables on targets and on ammo boxes; never been impressed.
You have to start somewhere. Nothing is going to be perfect but using the target I mentioned, or ballistic tables probably wont be right on, but they will get you on paper.

There are environmental concerns, I agree, that is why score/data books are so critical. One should record every shot fired, in what conditions, what changes were made,.........everything. That will give you history/data so you can make the corrections needed the next time you shoot.
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Old June 1, 2011, 12:43 PM   #16
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Great information on this thread!
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Old June 4, 2011, 01:54 PM   #17
Dave Anderson
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Using the 175 SMK w/a muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS, sighted in at 100 yards, it drops 30.5 inches at 1000
That has to be a typo. From a 100 yard zero it would likely drop close to 30 inches at 400 yards, never mind a thousand.

At 1,000 yards I'm sure drop from a 100-yard zero would be well over 300 inches.
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Old June 4, 2011, 07:49 PM   #18
Jim Watson
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Probably so. Or a slip of the lip. 30.5 m.o.a. is 319 inches at 1000 yds.
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Old June 4, 2011, 08:55 PM   #19
Dave Anderson
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I think Jim Watson has the explanation, 30.5 moa sounds more like it. As he says, just a slip of the lip.

I ran the numbers on a ballistic calculator I've found to be quite reliable (it's at www.biggameinfo.com) and it came up with 32 moa. This is at 1,000 feet elevation, temperature of 59 degrees and reticle 1.5 inches above the bore.

None of these ballistic calculators are perfect as there are so many variables, but as has been said earlier they can at least get you on paper and save a lot of time.
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Old June 6, 2011, 06:39 PM   #20
ops
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formula for Drop due to MV

Drop depends on two things: Muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient of the bullet. 168gr Sierra Matchkings work decent at 1000 yds (say 8" groups) from a 1:9.25 twist factory barrel in my 7mm with 2650fps MV, but I guess you're talking 30 cal. 2950fps will decrease that holdover to 30 MOA.
Google Berger 's website - it has a drop calculator and JBM has one. They get you plenty close enough to start with a Springfield. Mine needs 33-34.5 MOA elevation increase above a 100 yd zero in order to ding a 22" steel plate at 1,000. And even with no wind, I have to go an extra 2.5 minutes left on the scope windage.
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Old June 6, 2011, 07:00 PM   #21
ops
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Prep method

That prep could be used to do what you want. Once you get as close an estimate as you can with JBM on the MOA drop. 40 MOA is going to be in the ball park to begin-with. I have no expensive tools so I improvised when I began attempts at 1,000. I use a good Leupold 6.5-20 scope but it has a 1" tube. So I needed an elevated base. I picked a Leupold 20 MOA 1-piece base and when I screwed the front down to the receiver I could still get a dime between the rear of the base and the receiver. Needless to say, I got no elevation increase at the 1000yd range. Then I tried another manufacturer's 20MOA base and having found mechanical zero of the scope (that's where the crosshairs are level with the body of the tube), fired the gun at 100 yards and came-up 12 inches high when I was expecting 20 inches high - that's only 60%. So I sent that one back (and the mfr told me that was the first time he'd had a return in 20 years of his business operation). He finally conceeded it was the reciever finish to base fit that must be off. Tried a third base, 30MOA made by Ken Farrell, fired the gun at 100, came up 29 inches high and have stuck with that to this day. So, if the method of shoot-high testing at 100 is applied to getting on target at 1,000 then certainly it can be used.
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Old June 6, 2011, 11:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Quote:
Using the 175 SMK w/a muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS, sighted in at 100 yards, it drops 30.5 inches at 1000

That has to be a typo. From a 100 yard zero it would likely drop close to 30 inches at 400 yards, never mind a thousand.

At 1,000 yards I'm sure drop from a 100-yard zero would be well over 300 inches.
You're right,that should have been "30 MOA".
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Old June 7, 2011, 04:02 AM   #23
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1 moa is 1 inch impact change at 100 yards. 1.5 moa at 100 yards is 1.5 inch change at 100 yards. How do you get from 30.5 moa to 319 inch change at 1,000 yards? Answer: Wind, trigger release aka shooter, or the rifle needs new MZ at 1,000. Many good shooting rifles do. That is one reason for adjustable sights. Individual Rifle Data Books are critical. And if you really get fancy you can add mildots to your retitcle. Remember, 1 Mil is equal to 3.44 moa at 100 yards. P.S. MOA is really 1.047 inch change at 100 yards, so that extra .047 times 10 really adds up.
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Old June 7, 2011, 01:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
You're right,that should have been "30 MOA".
I was sure it was a typo or "slip of the lip" as Jim Watson put it. It is evident from reading the entire post that kraigwy knows what he is talking about.

Quote:
And even with no wind, I have to go an extra 2.5 minutes left on the scope windage.
Spin drift from a right-hand twist barrel, no doubt. With an accurate rifle the effect of spin drift can be seen even at 300 yards, once you get out to 500 yards and further it becomes obvious.

David Tubb designed a scope reticle in which the bottom half of the vertical crosshair was curved, to allow for spin drift at various ranges.
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Old June 7, 2011, 02:09 PM   #25
Jim Watson
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They didn't call the sighting element on an '03 the "drift slide" for nothing. Infantry doctrine back then called for extreme long range formation fire and the sight is angled to allow for rifling drift.
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