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Old June 12, 2011, 12:44 AM   #1
boxjeff
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New to tactical type rifles?

I'm new to tactical type rifles, have begun exploring purchasing one and find myself a bit confused.

1. Why are most 223 and not a more powerful round like 30-06 or 308?
2. What accessories do most people think are must haves?
3. What is a quality scope for someone who has never used one?
4. What manufactures are best/reliable at an affordable price?
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Old June 12, 2011, 01:00 AM   #2
trg42wraglefragle
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Tactical or Tacticool rifle seems to be the craze at the moment, depending on what you intend on doing depends what caliber and what accessories you need, although a lot of accessories out there are what people want not what they need.

If your wanting a gun for a bit of target shooting and varmint shooting then a 223 will be fine, cheaper ammo and easily for fills the role.
Go for a heavy barrel Remington or Savage bolt action and put a decent quality scope on it around a 4-16 times zoom and a bipod, and buy a lot of ammo to practise with.
You may want to get into reloading to save on ammo costs.

BUT! If your wanting a zombie slaying world destroying assassin gun like most people seem to "need" then you will want a AR 10 style of rifle but not in a standard caliber like 308 and not Direct Impingement, you'l want quad rails, a laser pointer, torch, bipod, monopod, bayonet lug, a ACOG scope with a eotech sight attached to the top.
Now you are ready to save the world
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Old June 12, 2011, 01:22 AM   #3
T. O'Heir
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Hi. The term 'tactical' is the current marketing buzz word. Used to be 'Law Enforcement'. There's no such thing as a 'tactical' anything.
1. Current NATO cartridge. Target shooters use the .223 because the felt recoil is less. There are lots of 7.62/.308 battle rifles. More expensive to shoot. No .30-06 because it's too long. If you want a .30-06, go to the CMP, jump the hoops(shoot the matches even if you don't have to) and buy an M1 Rifle.
2. Most of that stuff is just a way to separate you from your money. Mag pouches being the exception and maybe buffers. Flashlights and stuff like that are nonsense.
3. A lot depends on your budget, but any of 'em will do. Battle rifles don't really need scopes. A scope does not make a rifle that doesn't shoot well without one, shoot better. They only let you see the target better.
If you opt for one, pay close attention to the weight, the mounts and rings and the field of view. That's how much area you can see at a given distance. Usually given as so many square feet at 100 yards.
4. More budget considerations. What you consider affordable will be different from what others do. You'll be looking at around a grand to 2 grand for most of 'em. Stay away from anything Century Arms had anything to do with. They assemble rifles out of parts bins with zero QC.
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Old June 12, 2011, 08:15 AM   #4
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First, decide what range and target you plan to actually shoot with it. What the bullet is expected to do is more important than what the gun looks like. It's all about delivering enough force at a specific distance to do the intended job.

The trend to intermediate calibers in combat reflects the reality that most soldiers never shot much beyond 500m, and that represents the limit of lethality needed for combat. The recoil of larger guns delivering more power than needed creates less shooting, and less accurate shooting, both of which contribute to more of the other guys soldiers being more effective, and the fight lasting longer. You have to actually pull the trigger and hit someone to take them out of the fight, soldiers have proven over and over they do that better with smaller guns with no recoil much more than big ones.

Accessories are so diverse, not even the Army could pin it down, but still had to meet the needs of it's customer base. Hence, the quad rail fore end, which even the contract supplier KAC has said isn't needed by the average shooter. It's an institutional compromise. If you shoot one gun enough, you'll decide what accessory you need, otherwise publish a CC number for all of us to use for you, and enjoy the vast array off stuff you'll quickly decide serves no purpose.

Scopes go back to - what range, what target? Under 200m, a red dot, over 500m, a 4x12, but we can't suggest anything until it's clearly spelled out.

What makers are best? Goes back to what range, what target? Brand fans will always push their specific one gun experience, but what they offer may be moot if the gun isn't the calber or shoots the range to actually reach out and drop the intended target. It's specifically why there are hundreds of cartridges, and nearly a hundred you could shoot from the AR15.

Until the question is answered, most of what gets posted on the internet is a bit of chest thumping fanboy recommendations about what toys they bought, not seasoned advice to help a new shooter get started.
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Old June 12, 2011, 02:56 PM   #5
boxjeff
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Great information...Thanks!

I think I'll go back to my original choice, The Remington 7600 Pump rifle. I'm thinking it would be great for some target practice and hunting. But, I'm still stuck on choosing between 308 or 30-06. The gun store rep in pushing for 30-06 and insists it's the most available round in the world and comes in everything, varmint, target, and large powerful hunting loads and I can't do better then that.

Comments???

Also, what are some mid-range price quality scope brands?
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Old June 12, 2011, 03:00 PM   #6
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Just remember tactical is a state of mind. No weapon or system or dohickey is going to turn you into anything. Don't fall into the it's black and cool so I have to have it syndrome.
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Old June 12, 2011, 03:07 PM   #7
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Not much difference between a .308 and a .30-06. The former can be slightly less expensive and is a bit better in short barrels; the latter can handle heavier bullets and is slightly better in long barrels, where it can be somewhat more powerful.

They both use the same diameter bullets. So both can use the lighter varmint bullets and sabots.

Remington 7600 is a good gun. It's more popular as a hunting rifle than as a target rifle.

Have fun
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Old June 12, 2011, 03:20 PM   #8
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In the 30-06 what would be a good target round to purchase and what would it be called?
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Old June 12, 2011, 03:29 PM   #9
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In .308 or 30-06 you can use pretty much anything to shoot paper. I would first find out the rate of twist in the barrel. 1:9 can generally handle heavier than say 1:11. For hitting paper, the lighter 140 grain will recoil less than the 180 grain. In the same thought, the .308 uses less pouder so it is usually cheaper and less recoil also. I have both, but the 30-06 has not been to the field in 8 or more years for the recoil reason. I can shoot the same bullet for less from my .308 and kill paper and animals both very quick.
For lighter ammo look for the Varmint loads, could be as low as 120 grain in 30-06, 80 grain in .308. (just what I have seen more common for factory loads)

Nikon, Bushnell, and a few others. Tasco and BSA have both lasted on 30-06 and shoot well at 100-200 yards for hunting and light target. This is a BSA on one of my 30-06 bolts and shot well out to 400. Never tried that rifle past that. Your budget and pourpose would dictate more of what is a good optic. If I were to go Long Range, I would consider completely different optics.

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Old June 12, 2011, 03:57 PM   #10
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I'll stick to your questions rather than toss around speculation about the owners of such rifles.

Quote:
1. Why are most 223 and not a more powerful round like 30-06 or 308?
2. What accessories do most people think are must haves?
3. What is a quality scope for someone who has never used one?
4. What manufactures are best/reliable at an affordable price?
1) It's mostly the natural outgrowth of the AR-15 platform being popular. The M-16/M4 family of rifles uses 5.56mm, which is closely related (but not identical) to the .223 Remington. Hence, the predominance of .223/5.56 rifles. The round is plenty effective against two legged predators (there's more effective, but it works), relatively inexpensive, and has very little recoil. Depending on the platform you'll see other calibers come into play (for the AK, you'd be talking 7.62x39 or 5.45x39, the FAL and CETMEs are indeed .308).

2) Depends on your uses. For a HD gun, a close quarters optic and flashlight are common. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) rifles also have a good following (no accessories beyond maybe a sling).

3) Depends on what kind of shooting you plan to do. For close quarters type optics, Aimpoint and EOTech rule the roost. For close to medium range, Trijicon has many followers. For long ranges with traditional magnification, there's no end of possible choices.

4) Hard to say; depends on what you find reasonable. For most folks, Bushmaster, Armalite, and Rock River are good choices. The extra hundred or two for a S&W M&P, Colt, or BCM can be worthwhile. If you're more into the Ruger Mini series, those are decent rifles.

However, I note you live in New Jersey. Your state laws are insane, so I'm not even sure if any of these options are available to you.
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Old June 12, 2011, 04:19 PM   #11
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Technosavant
I'll stick to your questions rather than toss around speculation about the owners of such rifles.


And this is someone that puts a quick slam on every one before reading to see the OP has moved on to other questions.
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Old June 12, 2011, 04:57 PM   #12
boxjeff
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So...the 30-06 is a more powerful round then the 308 and has a stronger recoil?
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Old June 12, 2011, 05:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxjeff
I think I'll go back to my original choice, The Remington 7600 Pump rifle. I'm thinking it would be great for some target practice and hunting. But, I'm still stuck on choosing between 308 or 30-06. The gun store rep in pushing for 30-06 and insists it's the most available round in the world and comes in everything, varmint, target, and large powerful hunting loads and I can't do better then that.
The Remington 7600 is a rifle that is often overlooked. People can't seem to get around the idea of a pump rifle. Mine is a lot more accurate than most people give them credit for being. For one thing, with that pump forend hanging out there, the barrel is floated by design. Remington is putting a 1:10 twist on those barrels, so it'll handle anything within reason.

My Remington pump (a .30-06 by the way) likes 155 grain bullets. Likes them so much that all I load for it are the Hornady 155 grain SST bullets. Over Reloder 22 powder. I tried one of those 10 round magazines, but it didn't work for squat. The downside of the pump rifles are that they're kinda twitchy about how you insert the magazine. It's not "slap it in and go" like on my AR, but it's not meant to be.

Quote:
Also, what are some mid-range price quality scope brands?
Redfield, Nikon, Weaver. Just a couple of weeks ago I bought a new scope by Weaver, called the Buck Commander. I don't buy the hype of naming a scope after an outdoor show, but I really like the scope, have it mounted on a .308 and it looks like it's going to be a keeper. Some other folks will come around with scope brands, depending on what you want to spend, but for under $200 you're just barely getting into mid-level scopes.
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Old June 12, 2011, 05:14 PM   #14
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Well boxjeff the 3006 has more case capacity than the .308.. the 3006 uses a "longaction" the .308 only requires the "shortaction". Now the .223 is more of a varmit or target (humans not withstanding), but can be loaded up for small thin-skinned animals like deer and hogs and such. I use 150 grn Ballistic Tips in our 3006, with totally killer success. I only shot .308 rnds in the MOARNG, through the venerable M-60, so I can't really speculate on the real performance of this round. All in all the .223 cartridge is lighter, son a fellar can carry more, the 3006 is way more powerfull, and can be loaded to kill anything here on this continent. The .308 seems to me, from what I read as a really terrific target caliber that can be loaded to shoot 1000 yds, regularly. But still I can only speculate as I've not owned one..
Anyway happy shootin, in whatever round you choose man.
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Old June 12, 2011, 05:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
So...the 30-06 is a more powerful round then the 308 and has a stronger recoil?
It depends.

Firing the same type and weight bullet at the same acceleration, the recoil will be the same.

The .30-06 has greater case capacity and can handle heavier bullets. With those circumstances the .30-06 will have greater recoil.

The given is that the rifles are exactly the same.
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Old June 12, 2011, 05:50 PM   #16
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OK, so you can choose a lighter round in the 30-06 and have less recoil and that suggests that the 30-06 is a more flexible round then the 308?
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Old June 12, 2011, 06:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
OK, so you can choose a lighter round in the 30-06 and have less recoil and that suggests that the 30-06 is a more flexible round then the 308?
Not really. Any light bullet you can put in an '06 you can put in the 308. On the other side of the spectrum, the '06 will handle the heavier bullets better then the 308.

If you reload, there's not a nickles worth of difference between the two until you get past 180 grns.

Some would say the 308 is cheaper to shoot, but that's not the case if you were to got the CMP Surplus '06 round. About 50 cents a round and they are good, CLEAN, reloadable brass.
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Old June 12, 2011, 06:41 PM   #18
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I had got a M&P15 earlier in the spring..and just got a DPMS AR-10.. just for kicks... literally.

I like shooting the .223 but wanted the bigger caliber for fun.

I plan on leaving them just as they come.. no add ons... just want something I can throw around..and not have scopes/laser parts fallin off.


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Old June 12, 2011, 09:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
And this is someone that puts a quick slam on every one before reading to see the OP has moved on to other questions.
A quick scanning indicated his specific questions had gone unanswered, but the usual mall ninja type comments were present.

As for the rest of it, whatever. Get over it.
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Old June 12, 2011, 10:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
OK, so you can choose a lighter round in the 30-06 and have less recoil and that suggests that the 30-06 is a more flexible round then the 308?
It depends.

The extra case capacity of the .30-06 can be more powerful than the .308. But if the rifle it's fired from has a short barrel that extra capacity is wasted. To use the full capacity of the .30-06 you need at least a 26" barrel. With a shorter barrel that excess powder burns up after it has left the barrel, where it no longer pushes the bullet. You do get an impressive gout of flame though.
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Old June 12, 2011, 10:09 PM   #21
boxjeff
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is there more variety of round in 308 or 30-06?
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Old June 12, 2011, 10:29 PM   #22
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The 30-06 and the .308, in factory loadings, are virtually ballistic twins. If you're thinking of rolling your own ammo, I'd say the '06 has a slight edge in versatility, provided your rifle has the 1:10" twist to handle the heavier bullets.

Inside of about 500 yards, I doubt that you'd see any significant difference in performance between the '06 and the .308. In a well-tweaked bolt-action rifle with an experienced shooter behind it, the .308 should have a slight edge in consistency; in a 7600, I don't think that's likely to be a factor.

In many areas of the US, .30-06 ammo used to be a little easier to find; any rural general store could even be counted on to have a few boxes of 150 and/or 180 grain softpoints. These days, I'm not so sure that the .308 has any real disadvantage in that regard.

Another factor might be worth considering. At least in my area of South Florida--which in some ways is rather like NJ, but with palm trees, Burmese pythons, and hurricanes--.30-06 ammo was plentiful during the Panic of '08, while .308, if it even got as far as the store shelves, disappeared immediately thereafter. (Ditto for .223, 7.62x39, 9x19, .380 (!), and .45ACP, though you're not really asking about those.) I'd expect the same sort of thing to happen during the likely Panic of '12; maybe even more so. If you go with the .308, I'd suggest taking that into account and planning accordingly.
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Old June 12, 2011, 10:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
is there more variety of round in 308 or 30-06?
Yes there is.
The odds of your taking advantage of that variety are very low. You see the Remington 7600 has a 22" barrel. The heavier bullets are also not going to be necessary for deer hunting.
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Old June 12, 2011, 11:03 PM   #24
boxjeff
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Thanks! JackL

Perfect answer and exactly the information I was looking for.
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Old June 12, 2011, 11:16 PM   #25
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Everyone gets those AR/M4 things - don't you wanna be cooler than that?

Get an EBR man! they are cool, they came about cuz the Navy seals wanted them, and they kick ass!

They are more accurate than AR kits you can buy and they look cooler too:

Why not use the rifle that the Army and Marines are currently using? They are putting the EBRs into service becaus ethey can do what the M16A4 / M4 can't - hit targets at those 900+ meter ranges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_14_M...d_Battle_Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M39_Enh...Marksman_Rifle
http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...-battle-rifle/




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