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Old May 25, 2011, 11:06 PM   #1
snuffy
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New Miha cramer mold

It finally came! Well worth the wait, the precision is amazing.











They drop right at 200 gr. measure .4545 with this range scrap lead, size to .4525 in a RCBS .452 die. Lubed with Lars red from white label lubes.

Loaded 100, 50 of each, gotta fill some milk jugs with water to see how they expand. Range report with pics coming soon.
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Old May 25, 2011, 11:32 PM   #2
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Looks great!!!
I might have to try and con you otta some of them. I really like those molds, but cant afford them right now.
Work is slow with the economy, and the rain has been raising havac with the work we do have.
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Old May 25, 2011, 11:44 PM   #3
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That is a nice mould. Is that a custom mould? How much was it? The HP shape is changeable? Very neet.
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Old May 25, 2011, 11:51 PM   #4
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Great looking boolits.....
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Old May 26, 2011, 04:34 AM   #5
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Eric fixed up a 454190 for me that looks a lot like your bullets, but cast @ 230gr....I wonder if a 1 to 20 mix would give me a bullet that would expand at say 900fps.
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Old May 26, 2011, 07:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
That is a nice mould. Is that a custom mould? How much was it? The HP shape is changeable? Very neet.
Ed, that's a group buy from over @ castboolits.com. It's made over in Slovenija by a man named Miha Prevec, he has access to a CNC milling center. The molds copy a very old design from a company called Cramer. Brass construction gives the best of two worlds, harder than aluminum, machines cleaner than steel or cast iron.

Cost was $156.00. Now I figure 100 dollars is a lot of money,(that dates me, it took 2 weeks to earn 100 bucks when I started working), so these molds are expensive. AND you have to wait a long time for them to be made.

The way a group buy works is; somebody comes up with an idea. There's a couple of guys over on C B that can use a CAD program to draw up a bullet shape/size/function. Then feelers are put out about interest in the form and function. When enough interest is shown, the mold maker is asked if he can run it. This group buy started 11-07-2010. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...ad.php?t=97566
So the wait was 1.5 years! It no sooner than it closed when another one was started,(about a month ago), it already has 60+ people ordering one.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=114718

Yes, the pins can be changed out so you can make all one HP type, or turned around to make a solid, or any combination. I went with 2 of the normal round HP and 2 of the penta points to start with. I may make a few solids that will cast at about 215 grains, but I already have a lee 6 banger in the 200 RNFP.

Quote:
Eric fixed up a 454190 for me that looks a lot like your bullets, but cast @ 230gr....I wonder if a 1 to 20 mix would give me a bullet that would expand at say 900fps.
Yup, I bet that mix would be excellent as far as expansion would be concerned. Those that I made were from some range scrap lead that I re-claimed. It's about 12-14 BHN, so I don't expect it to expand much. I plan on mixing up an alloy of nearly pure lead with about 2% tin. Problem is I need some more tin. I'll raid the local fleet farm of most of their lead free solder while in town today!
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Last edited by snuffy; May 28, 2011 at 10:58 PM.
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Old May 26, 2011, 10:44 AM   #7
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Did they make the lube groove smaller on this run or did your sizing just "shrink" the lube groove a bit? I had a mold from the 3rd run on this mold and it seems my lube groove was a bit wider...it held a plentiful amount of lube. EXTREMELY accurate boolit out of my Kimber. Great looking slugs Snuffy. I miss mine!
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Old May 26, 2011, 11:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
Did they make the lube groove smaller on this run or did your sizing just "shrink" the lube groove a bit? I had a mold from the 3rd run on this mold and it seems my lube groove was a bit wider...it held a plentiful amount of lube. EXTREMELY accurate boolit out of my Kimber. Great looking slugs Snuffy. I miss mine!
As far as I know, this is the same cherry that made all the other 1 and 2 cavity molds. It was made in 4 cav for those that couldn't cast fast enough with the 2 cav. That lube groove is plenty big. It gobbles up lube so fast, that I'm gonna have to order some more lars red! Those big 700/500's ate lube up fast. 4 big grooves to fill.

You should know better than selling an accurate mold!

BTW, they just started another group buy for this same mold. Enter it now, you might have a new mold for Christmas!
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Old May 26, 2011, 11:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
BTW, they just started another group buy for this same mold. Enter it now, you might have a new mold for Christmas!
Can't do that! I am already in on 3 others through NOE. That is gonna set me back a bit. PLUS, my Lee 200 SWC shoots just as good...so I had a hard time justifying keeping it when I needed funds for another project. The Lee casts faster too (I love 6 cav molds! ). Enjoy that mold!
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Old May 26, 2011, 08:53 PM   #10
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Wow. Simply awesome.
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Old May 26, 2011, 09:57 PM   #11
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I have an M-P Molds 125 grain HP .359 mold and love it. Sized down to .357 and using BAC lube from White Label Lubes. When I first got mine, I didn't want to use it because it is a work of art.
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Old May 26, 2011, 11:39 PM   #12
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If you stop and think about it, $150 is alot.

BUT, if you do much shooting, it actually dont take long to pay for that mold.

Thats only 10 boxes of bullets at $15/box. 10 boxes dont last me long. If I take it easy, thats 2 years tops. After that, those bullets are free. Its hard to come up with $150, but I cant afford to not cast my own.

Thank God theres also Lee and Lyman and some very nice people I can trade some bullets
from now and then.

Last edited by reloader28; May 27, 2011 at 07:55 AM.
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Old May 26, 2011, 11:58 PM   #13
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Disagree. If you think about how many boolits that mould represents...150 bucks is cheap. that isn't a Lee mould there boys... that mould looks superb and I bet it's a joy to cast with compared to a Lee mould.

I gotta get one of those. I'm off to CBF...
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Old May 27, 2011, 09:49 PM   #14
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We're drooling over a quality tool that will outlast all of us with proper use and care. I spent that much on gas this week. On the other hand, I spent that much on gas this week.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:02 PM   #15
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Edward
This computer dont always say what I'm thinking, so I'll repost.

I meant that $150 sounds like alot, but the mold is actually paid for in a few boxes of bullets.
After that, they're free unless your buying your lead. Even at the $20/bucket that I've paid lately, it dont amount to enough to figure in.
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Old May 28, 2011, 09:55 PM   #16
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I understood, RL28. Yes it's a lot of money but there's a lot of value as well. $150 doesn't buy much in the way of high-end materials, fine craftsmanship and high-tech machining these days. OTOH it's hard to find an "extra" $150 laying around these days.
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Old June 9, 2011, 02:09 PM   #17
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The firing went fine, except for the Texas weather we imported! 93 humid degrees, I'm still trying to get re-hydrated.

Now if I could just get that #@)*^!!+ camera to download, I'd be able to show some fantastic expanded boolits! The bullet test tube worked really well. Surprised at the limited penetration. 5 inches with little or no wound cavity.

The round HP did best, .890 expansion, perfect round disc, expanded back PAST the lube groove.

Penta point expanded to .850, was lop-sided, very uneven expansion, and deviated from going straight in. I had to dig it out of the expansion material,(wax).

There was no sign of any lead being shed by either boolit. In fact, they both weighed in the same average of the boolits I cast last night.

I got 2 test tubes, one is for defensive handgun, the other for non-magnum rifles. I used both today, that might scew the results, as the rifle tube has 4X the material and 2x the diameter. They can only be used once per day, the re-casting takes 24 hours to cool.

Accuracy was pretty good, considering I used my standard 200 grain load of 5.7 WW-231 that was already set-up in the dillon 650. Group size @ 25 yards was around 3 inches, which is about all these old eyes can do. Velocity was in the mid 900's. I shot the boolits at 5 paces from the test tubes.

If I get the consarned camera figured out, I'll post pics tomorrow.

After a knock-down-drag-out-fight with the camera, here's the pics!

Round HP left, penta right.



Same as above.



This is the round HP.



And then the penta point, it curved to one side, so I had to dig for it.





I will test more of these boolits as soon as I figure out how to re-cast the medium. It appears the boys at bullet-test-tube are t!ts up! Their email account returns emails, mailbox full, and their phone is disconnected. I did a search for cardboard tubes, there's a bunch of suppliers that I can order from.
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Old June 9, 2011, 07:59 PM   #18
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Hi Snuffy,
Those look like promising results. At what temp do you pour your lead into your mold? Just curious. I get OK results casting with my 9mm M-P mold hollow point, but they don't end up looking as nice as yours.
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Old June 9, 2011, 08:15 PM   #19
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Reloader28 I guess i just skimmed your post or read the first line, sorry.
What you wrote is not hard to understand if one reads it all...

The expansion looks nice. Did you happen to measure the penetration that accompanied it?
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Old June 9, 2011, 11:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Now if I could just get that #@)*^!!+ camera to download, I'd be able to show some fantastic expanded boolits! The bullet test tube worked really well. Surprised at the limited penetration. 5 inches with little or no wound cavity.
In my best Ray Stevens speak, yeah ah did!(From his song "The Streak")

Vance the expanded boolits were of a softer alloy than the ones pictured in the first post. That was range lead at 700 degrees.

I'll take a few pics of the softer alloy, they look like they're brite chrome plated! It's nearly pure lead with about 2% tin. I may try the range lead boolits in the test tube expansion media. IF they also expand well, then I can use either alloy. The softer alloy required a higher temp, 735 degrees.
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Old June 10, 2011, 10:31 AM   #21
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Snuffy,

First, an interesting looking mold. Looks like he's cutting vent grooves by running a fly cutter across the block faces, same as Lee does on their 6-cavity molds. It's a good system.

The expansion is fascinating. The shape of the cavity looks like the round nose expanded at least part way a couple inches in, then finished where the hole is bigger, while the penta looks like it went unexpanded until the very end, then opened up and dumped it all after about 5". Perhaps I'm mis-reading, though. I don't know how much you had to dig at the final bullet position to get the bullets out.

When you get the casting figured out, please shoot one round of commercial 230 grain JHP as a penetration reference. That green stuff may be harder than ballistic gel, and if so, we need a reference point. There are some ballistic gelatin tests online that got about 13" out of most commercial 230 grain expanding .45 ACP rounds. If you only get, say 6.5", then well know the green stuff is about 2:1 harder to penetrate than ballistic gelatin.
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Old June 10, 2011, 02:48 PM   #22
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Nick, I have never felt any ballistic gelatin, so I can't comment on the difference in density between the two. I do know that this stuff is quite dense, it's also quite heavy,(in weight). I would compare it with wet phone books or newsprint. I always considered wet paper to be much denser than gelatin.

That makes sense to compare a 230 grain HP to these, but the extra weight would result in a bit deeper penetration. Remember these are 200 grain bullets. How about a 200 grain HP, lets say a XTP or gold dot? These would be handloads, I haven't bought factory for so long, I doubt I could stand the experience! :barf:

Quote:
The expansion is fascinating. The shape of the cavity looks like the round nose expanded at least part way a couple inches in, then finished where the hole is bigger, while the penta looks like it went unexpanded until the very end, then opened up and dumped it all after about 5". Perhaps I'm miss-reading, though. I don't know how much you had to dig at the final bullet position to get the bullets out.
That's how I read the bullet/wound channel also. The round HP was sitting right where the wound channel ended. The penta deviated right at the end of it's channel, was at least an inch from it's path. You draw a line that intersects the bullet hole on the side of the tube. Then the provided splitter is a fine cable/wire that is hooked to two rings to pull the wire through the wax.

A couple more tests with more boolits will tell the tale. It will take a lot of time if I don't get more of the expansion media. You can only use it once per day per target.

A search online has netted me a bunch of places to order more spiral wound cardboard tubes.BUT the big ones ,(6 inch), require ground trucking, the packages are too big for UPS or FED-X. Looks like I will get the 4 inchers for the handgun tests, look around for someplace to get the larger ones without costing $185.00 for delivery!
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Old June 10, 2011, 10:08 PM   #23
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Snuffy,

The idea I had was to compare one medium to the other by comparing how they do with the same type of round, then to extrapolate back to how your's compares. I've seen photos of a number of 13" penetrations by a variety of 230 grain HP loads, so that's the best general data I have to work with. But, I have one datapoint on the 185 grain Silvertip penetrating 9.8 inches, and I found 5 datapoints for a 200 grain +P Gold Dot load penetrating an average of 12.4". Maybe 11" or so for a standard pressure 200 grain, then, but its a guess.

So, while we can't make as good a generalization about 200 as a 230, that's better than what we know now. If we assume about 11 tor 12 inches for it in gelatin, but it only penetrates your material 6", then will know it's about 2:1, and your cast bullets would have gone about 10" in official tissue simulant.
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Old June 10, 2011, 11:00 PM   #24
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UncleNick, we're on the same page. I have some 200 gold dots loaded, I will do a comparison test.

I finally found a place,http://www.uline.com/Index.aspx that shipped the two sizes of spiral wound cardboard tubes for $33.35 + the cost of the tubes. I will be set for 75 molds for handgun, and 33 for rifle. All were 36" long, I only need tubes 12' long, so cutting them will triple the amount. Should keep me busy all summer.

I plan on getting a couple more of the rifle tubes, better hurry if they're t!ts up at thetesttube.com, Brownells still has some of them left. That should give me enough material for a bunch of handgun tubes, maybe ten for each trip to the range.
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Old June 11, 2011, 09:28 AM   #25
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With handloads, just be sure they chrono to match the commercial versions. Should be interesting.
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