When did the "Weaver stance" come into use?

ipscchef · May 25, 2011, 10:09 PM

I have heard and read from several different sources about how the Weaver stance got its start. Fom what I have learned from several different sources, it is generaly accepted that it really began back in the late 60's-early 70's, up at Big Bear, when Jack Weaver, Col. Cooper, the great Thell Reed, and some others were competing in the "Leather Slap" competitions held, I believe by Col. Cooper. Things were generaly evenly split speed and accuracy wise, until the one year Jack Weaver started using his now famous two hande grip with one elbow- on the off hand bent at a more acute angle than the strong side. I have seen video that documents this with all of them firing one handed except for Mr., or Officer, Weaver, who proceeded to clean the clocks of the other shooters. In addition, I shot USPSA for about 13 years and met some of the "Old Timers" that were involved with the matches, and they concur.

My issue is that I just watched an episode of "Modern Marvels" on the History channel this morning, it was titiled "Police Guns", and they showed a clip of what appears to be a documentary style film, as opposed to a Drama, that was titiled "The Thin Blue Line" It was dated 1956, and the revolvers, uniforms, haircuts, etc. seemed to be in line with this date. It showed a line of about 15-20 officers drawing- and going into the Weaver stance. They did go to one knee, BUT they did NOT rest their elbows on the knee, rather they held a proper Weaver stance, just kneeling. This would seem to indicate to me that this stance was in general use, at least with LAPD long before the Leather Slap matches.

Does anyone have any info about how and when the Weaver Stance took the LEO and shooting community by storm, as it were? Just curious, as I believe that the transition to the two handed hold from the "Bullseye" one handed hold by LE probably saved as many officers lives as vests have.

Willy

Jim March · May 26, 2011, 01:42 AM

The Leatherslap matches were '50s, not 60's/70's.

Eagle0711 · May 26, 2011, 01:55 AM

The OPs information sounds correct as to it's history. Its' only a guess but Col Cooper started the shooting school called " Gunsight " and passed his techniques on to students, many were LEO or LEO instructors.

**Frank Ettin** · May 26, 2011, 12:15 PM

Gunsite opened around the mid to late 1970s.

Slopemeno · May 26, 2011, 04:28 PM

1959 was when Jack started winning with it, IIRC

aarondhgraham · May 26, 2011, 05:44 PM

Click here please,,,

Aarond

ipscchef · May 26, 2011, 09:25 PM

Thanks for the responses, but that still leaves a timeline discrepency if the film on the History channel is to be believed. As I stated this was from 1956, and it does appear that these officers had been using this technique for a while at least.

BTW, no disrespect to anyone, but before the '08 election, Wikpedia listed Barack Obamas' birthplace as Kenya, I have seen that with my own eyes, and have a friend who still has that older page saved on his PC. So I am not sure how much credence I want to give to Wikpedia as far as dates OR places goes. I was going to post more about this, but this is not the proper forum

I do think that Jim March is correct though about the Leather Slap matches, that would still indicate that Jack Weaver had been teaching it before the 1959 date given by slopemeno, which I do also believe is correct.

Again, thankd for all of the input, and it is not that big of a deal, but I would like to get a real timeline of how and when it became widespread, just out of curiousity. Like I said, to me, anyway, this is one of the great quantum leaps in LE and firearms use in general.

JMHO, and as always,YMMV

Willy

Jim March · May 26, 2011, 11:52 PM

Heh. If Obama is the subject....

http://i.imgur.com/ujCgl.jpg

BlueTrain · May 27, 2011, 07:39 AM

One has to put Weaver and his shooting style into context. Some of you may have heard that the 1950s and 1960s were when fast draw was the craze among us gun nuts--I mean afficianados. There were actually two different schools, if you want to call them that, one going for speed and using blanks, the other with life ammo. One was called quick draw, the other fast draw (I think) but I don't remember which was which. Competitions with blanks involved direct competitions between two individials, the so-called walk and draw contests. But you probably aren't interested in anything that uses blanks.

The other used live ammo and targets. It was sometimes a little dangerous and competitors could easily shoot themselves in the leg or foot, something which never, ever happens these days.

The origins of this fascinating game and pastime were Western movies. By the 1950s, especially on television, Westerns had become more adult and less musical and probably used fewer horses. You probably know about Hollywood holsters already. Some that fast draw competitors were fitted with metal shields to help reduce the consequences of a fumbled fast draw.

Some of this bled over into serious gunfighting theory, which, then as now, is mostly talk, but it was written about as if it had modern combat application. Even Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan spoke of it that way, as did Gaylord, though they all used double-action revolvers. I don't know when Cooper decided that automatics were better.

Fast draw with a single action did not involve sighted fire. Hip shooting was apparently thought sufficient. That's the way John Wayne did it, so it must work. Weaver, however, didn't even use a single action. His competition probably thought he was cheating. That's probably when Cooper started thinking about the power factor. If you think a .45 is what you need, you write the rules with that in mind. Anyhow, the targets were small and Weaver made his hits. The rest is dim and foggy history.

Big Bear is in California, by the way. I was up there year before last.

Also, Wikipedia says John McCain was born in Panama. That can't be right, can it? Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona Territory.

Mello2u · May 27, 2011, 01:49 PM

The only reference I can find for a documentary titled "The Thin Blue Line" is for a 1988 film.

Quote:

The Thin Blue Line is a 1988 documentary film about Randall Dale Adams, a man convicted and sentenced to die for a murder he did not commit. Adams' case was reviewed and he was released from prison approximately a year after the film's release.

The film concerns the November 28, 1976 murder of Dallas police officer, Robert W. Wood, during a traffic stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thi...ine_%28film%29

FM12 · May 27, 2011, 11:22 PM

Dude: Periods are your friends!! No extra charge for more, shorter sentenbces.

Excellent post though!!

dabo · May 29, 2011, 11:17 AM

Forgive my igganence, but what is the Weaver stance, please? Thank you!

**Frank Ettin** · May 29, 2011, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dabo

Forgive my igganence, but what is the Weaver stance, please? Thank you!...

See here and here and here.

micromontenegro · June 1, 2011, 11:21 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14qTd...mbedded#at=150

At about 2:25 you can watch the Weaver stance, circa 1944 version.

g.willikers · June 1, 2011, 03:45 PM

That video is scary, ain't it?
Rule 1 must have been to always have the finger on the trigger.
Rule 2 must have been to always point the gun at the instructor.

Jim March · June 1, 2011, 04:16 PM

As an aside: McCain was born on US soil - which in turn happened to be a US base in Panama. Considering that fact plus both parents US citizens who were stationed there on orders, the first time he ran for Prez it was officially decided he was qualified. I agree with that decision.

For the record: I strongly suspect Obama was born in Hawaii. I don't know why the White House posted a fake long-form birth cert, but they most certainly did. Either somebody is hiding something else, or they just don't have the records and decided to fake it, or he was born in another country. Weird situation all around.

Back on topic: that 1944 Army video was unreal. "Cupping" with the off-hand? As official doctrine? Really? Gawd.

Here's FBI doctrine as of 1961 - pure "Jelly Bryce":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViX9D9TJ8k8

BlueTrain · June 1, 2011, 04:36 PM

At one time it was a common practice to hold the wrist of the gun hand with the other hand. I couldn't say how common, however. That doesn't work with automatics. But using two hands to shoot a handgun has been around longer than I have. Styles of shooting come and go. One of the oddest ones is to rest a rifle on your feet as you recline, while bracing with the sling. That style needs a long barrel, if nothing else.

Jim March · June 1, 2011, 09:55 PM

Quote:

One of the oddest ones is to rest a rifle on your feet as you recline, while bracing with the sling. That style needs a long barrel, if nothing else.

That came out of the Creedmore and similar competitions. It was a rules thing: no "bipod" or similar allowed except for your own body

. And I *think* prone was either disallowed completely or discouraged by some kind of "gun can't touch the ground" rule?

BlueTrain · June 2, 2011, 06:48 AM

No doubt competitions brought a lot of rules but that curious reclining position is older than that.

Buzzcook · June 2, 2011, 12:51 PM

Birtherism? Still? Really?

Wikipedia? Geez.

The short form birth certificate released in 2008 was and is the legal document proving birth in Hawaii.
It is in fact illegal to release the long form birth certificate. Obama had to get a legal exception to get the long forms release
The long form is not a legal document and has no standing in the law.

markj · June 2, 2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Birtherism? Still? Really?

I agree, Donald? you out there?

Oh no they is gonna take our guns away oh no

BlueTrain · June 2, 2011, 03:29 PM

Did you ever see a photo of someone using a revolver with it cradled in their crossed arms held at shoulder height? That sounds a little confusing. With your revolver in your right hand, raise your arms, place your left hand on your right bicep or the inside of your right forearm, then place your gun hand on your left arm somewhere around your elbow. It isn't a good idea with a heavily loaded revolver. Definately dated but it might just be the thing for your K-22, which also seems a little dated.

micromontenegro · June 2, 2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Did you ever see a photo of someone using a revolver with it cradled in their crossed arms held at shoulder height? That sounds a little confusing. With your revolver in your right hand, raise your arms, place your left hand on your right bicep or the inside of your right forearm, then place your gun hand on your left arm somewhere around your elbow. It isn't a good idea with a heavily loaded revolver. Definately dated but it might just be the thing for your K-22, which also seems a little dated.

I did that when I somehow grafted a rifle scope in my.... you've guessed it: K-22.

Early 80's.

ClydeFrog · June 2, 2011, 11:01 PM

To my limited knowledge, the "Weaver Stance" as it is commonly known was R&Ded by a LA Sheriff's Dept LT named Jack Weaver.
Weaver worked with former USMC officer & combat veteran Jeff Cooper and a few others to design/develop new pistol training methods/draws.

The late author/gun expert Robert Boatman; www.BoatmanBooks.com wrote about Weaver & Cooper in his "Living With" book about the 1911 pistol.

I prefer the "Modified Weaver" which has the non firing hand in a support position. It seems fast & smooth to me.

The "Chapman Weaver" or "Speed Weaver" has merit too for match use or as an advanced combat response but it requires full training & extended practice to really be practical. Chapman refers to noted match shooter: Ray Chapman.

ClydeFrog

doofus47 · June 2, 2011, 11:47 PM

isn't there a picture of Obama using the Weaver stance in a documentary about LEO instructors in Hawaii?

just trying to bring all the threads together....

May 25, 2011, 10:09 PM	#1
ipscchef Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: South Central Pa. Posts: 422	When did the "Weaver stance" come into use? I have heard and read from several different sources about how the Weaver stance got its start. Fom what I have learned from several different sources, it is generaly accepted that it really began back in the late 60's-early 70's, up at Big Bear, when Jack Weaver, Col. Cooper, the great Thell Reed, and some others were competing in the "Leather Slap" competitions held, I believe by Col. Cooper. Things were generaly evenly split speed and accuracy wise, until the one year Jack Weaver started using his now famous two hande grip with one elbow- on the off hand bent at a more acute angle than the strong side. I have seen video that documents this with all of them firing one handed except for Mr., or Officer, Weaver, who proceeded to clean the clocks of the other shooters. In addition, I shot USPSA for about 13 years and met some of the "Old Timers" that were involved with the matches, and they concur. My issue is that I just watched an episode of "Modern Marvels" on the History channel this morning, it was titiled "Police Guns", and they showed a clip of what appears to be a documentary style film, as opposed to a Drama, that was titiled "The Thin Blue Line" It was dated 1956, and the revolvers, uniforms, haircuts, etc. seemed to be in line with this date. It showed a line of about 15-20 officers drawing- and going into the Weaver stance. They did go to one knee, BUT they did NOT rest their elbows on the knee, rather they held a proper Weaver stance, just kneeling. This would seem to indicate to me that this stance was in general use, at least with LAPD long before the Leather Slap matches. Does anyone have any info about how and when the Weaver Stance took the LEO and shooting community by storm, as it were? Just curious, as I believe that the transition to the two handed hold from the "Bullseye" one handed hold by LE probably saved as many officers lives as vests have. Willy __________________ Don' keep shooting them until you think they are dead, Keep shooting them until they think they are dead.- Clint Smith

May 26, 2011, 01:42 AM	#2
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,016	The Leatherslap matches were '50s, not 60's/70's. __________________ Jim March

May 26, 2011, 05:44 PM	#6
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 6,358	According to Wikipedia,,, Click here please,,, Aarond __________________ Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Combat: "A Silent Cry" Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

May 26, 2011, 09:25 PM	#7
ipscchef Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: South Central Pa. Posts: 422	Thanks Thanks for the responses, but that still leaves a timeline discrepency if the film on the History channel is to be believed. As I stated this was from 1956, and it does appear that these officers had been using this technique for a while at least. BTW, no disrespect to anyone, but before the '08 election, Wikpedia listed Barack Obamas' birthplace as Kenya, I have seen that with my own eyes, and have a friend who still has that older page saved on his PC. So I am not sure how much credence I want to give to Wikpedia as far as dates OR places goes. I was going to post more about this, but this is not the proper forum I do think that Jim March is correct though about the Leather Slap matches, that would still indicate that Jack Weaver had been teaching it before the 1959 date given by slopemeno, which I do also believe is correct. Again, thankd for all of the input, and it is not that big of a deal, but I would like to get a real timeline of how and when it became widespread, just out of curiousity. Like I said, to me, anyway, this is one of the great quantum leaps in LE and firearms use in general. JMHO, and as always,YMMV Willy __________________ Don' keep shooting them until you think they are dead, Keep shooting them until they think they are dead.- Clint Smith

May 26, 2011, 11:52 PM	#8
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,016	Heh. If Obama is the subject.... http://i.imgur.com/ujCgl.jpg __________________ Jim March

May 26, 2011, 01:55 AM	#3
Eagle0711 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 782	The OPs information sounds correct as to it's history. Its' only a guess but Col Cooper started the shooting school called " Gunsight " and passed his techniques on to students, many were LEO or LEO instructors.

May 26, 2011, 12:15 PM	#4
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 4,986	Gunsite opened around the mid to late 1970s.

May 26, 2011, 04:28 PM	#5
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,110	1959 was when Jack started winning with it, IIRC

May 27, 2011, 07:39 AM	#9
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,809	One has to put Weaver and his shooting style into context. Some of you may have heard that the 1950s and 1960s were when fast draw was the craze among us gun nuts--I mean afficianados. There were actually two different schools, if you want to call them that, one going for speed and using blanks, the other with life ammo. One was called quick draw, the other fast draw (I think) but I don't remember which was which. Competitions with blanks involved direct competitions between two individials, the so-called walk and draw contests. But you probably aren't interested in anything that uses blanks. The other used live ammo and targets. It was sometimes a little dangerous and competitors could easily shoot themselves in the leg or foot, something which never, ever happens these days. The origins of this fascinating game and pastime were Western movies. By the 1950s, especially on television, Westerns had become more adult and less musical and probably used fewer horses. You probably know about Hollywood holsters already. Some that fast draw competitors were fitted with metal shields to help reduce the consequences of a fumbled fast draw. Some of this bled over into serious gunfighting theory, which, then as now, is mostly talk, but it was written about as if it had modern combat application. Even Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan spoke of it that way, as did Gaylord, though they all used double-action revolvers. I don't know when Cooper decided that automatics were better. Fast draw with a single action did not involve sighted fire. Hip shooting was apparently thought sufficient. That's the way John Wayne did it, so it must work. Weaver, however, didn't even use a single action. His competition probably thought he was cheating. That's probably when Cooper started thinking about the power factor. If you think a .45 is what you need, you write the rules with that in mind. Anyhow, the targets were small and Weaver made his hits. The rest is dim and foggy history. Big Bear is in California, by the way. I was up there year before last. Also, Wikipedia says John McCain was born in Panama. That can't be right, can it? Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona Territory. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

May 27, 2011, 11:22 PM	#11
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,530	Dude: Periods are your friends!! No extra charge for more, shorter sentenbces. Excellent post though!!

May 29, 2011, 11:17 AM	#12
dabo Member Join Date: March 23, 2011 Posts: 16	Forgive my igganence, but what is the Weaver stance, please? Thank you!

June 1, 2011, 11:21 AM	#14
micromontenegro Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2010 Location: Caracas, Venezuela Posts: 359	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14qTd...mbedded#at=150 At about 2:25 you can watch the Weaver stance, circa 1944 version.

June 1, 2011, 03:45 PM	#15
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 2,544	That video is scary, ain't it? Rule 1 must have been to always have the finger on the trigger. Rule 2 must have been to always point the gun at the instructor. __________________ Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.

June 1, 2011, 04:16 PM	#16
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,016	As an aside: McCain was born on US soil - which in turn happened to be a US base in Panama. Considering that fact plus both parents US citizens who were stationed there on orders, the first time he ran for Prez it was officially decided he was qualified. I agree with that decision. For the record: I strongly suspect Obama was born in Hawaii. I don't know why the White House posted a fake long-form birth cert, but they most certainly did. Either somebody is hiding something else, or they just don't have the records and decided to fake it, or he was born in another country. Weird situation all around. Back on topic: that 1944 Army video was unreal. "Cupping" with the off-hand? As official doctrine? Really? Gawd. Here's FBI doctrine as of 1961 - pure "Jelly Bryce": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViX9D9TJ8k8 __________________ Jim March

June 1, 2011, 04:36 PM	#17
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,809	At one time it was a common practice to hold the wrist of the gun hand with the other hand. I couldn't say how common, however. That doesn't work with automatics. But using two hands to shoot a handgun has been around longer than I have. Styles of shooting come and go. One of the oddest ones is to rest a rifle on your feet as you recline, while bracing with the sling. That style needs a long barrel, if nothing else. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

June 2, 2011, 06:48 AM	#19
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,809	No doubt competitions brought a lot of rules but that curious reclining position is older than that. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

June 2, 2011, 12:51 PM	#20
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 5,207	Birtherism? Still? Really? Wikipedia? Geez. The short form birth certificate released in 2008 was and is the legal document proving birth in Hawaii. It is in fact illegal to release the long form birth certificate. Obama had to get a legal exception to get the long forms release The long form is not a legal document and has no standing in the law.

June 2, 2011, 03:29 PM	#22
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,809	Did you ever see a photo of someone using a revolver with it cradled in their crossed arms held at shoulder height? That sounds a little confusing. With your revolver in your right hand, raise your arms, place your left hand on your right bicep or the inside of your right forearm, then place your gun hand on your left arm somewhere around your elbow. It isn't a good idea with a heavily loaded revolver. Definately dated but it might just be the thing for your K-22, which also seems a little dated. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. Last edited by BlueTrain; June 2, 2011 at 03:35 PM.

June 2, 2011, 11:01 PM	#24
ClydeFrog Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 3,872	LT Jack Weaver; Los Angeles County Sheriff's Dept(CA)... To my limited knowledge, the "Weaver Stance" as it is commonly known was R&Ded by a LA Sheriff's Dept LT named Jack Weaver. Weaver worked with former USMC officer & combat veteran Jeff Cooper and a few others to design/develop new pistol training methods/draws. The late author/gun expert Robert Boatman; www.BoatmanBooks.com wrote about Weaver & Cooper in his "Living With" book about the 1911 pistol. I prefer the "Modified Weaver" which has the non firing hand in a support position. It seems fast & smooth to me. The "Chapman Weaver" or "Speed Weaver" has merit too for match use or as an advanced combat response but it requires full training & extended practice to really be practical. Chapman refers to noted match shooter: Ray Chapman. ClydeFrog

June 2, 2011, 11:47 PM	#25
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 917	isn't there a picture of Obama using the Weaver stance in a documentary about LEO instructors in Hawaii? just trying to bring all the threads together....