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Old May 25, 2011, 12:16 AM   #26
.300 Weatherby Mag
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I shoot a pump very well and cycle it really fast... But I am not as fast as an auto... Best skeet score with a pump has been a 24.. Surprisingly its not the doubles that get me, its low 8...
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Old May 25, 2011, 12:28 AM   #27
Hawg
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This all came about when autos first came out and they were pretty slow. It was possible for an experienced pump shooter to outshoot those autos. With the autos out now it cant be done.
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Old May 25, 2011, 12:58 AM   #28
idek
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To clarify the record for hand-thrown targets with a pump....

"On July 19, 2000 Tom Knapp, with his pump Shotgun in one hand, threw eight clay targets in the air with his other hand and broke every one of them with individual shots in an amazing 1.87 seconds creating a Manually Operated Pump-Gun classification."

http://www.tomknapp.net/about/worldRecords.php

Semi-autos are still faster, but I figured we may as well have the right numbers for comparison.
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Old May 25, 2011, 04:59 AM   #29
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I have played with the Bennelli semi-autos.Those shoot fast.I do not argue the point.
I think the Ithaca 37 is about as fast as any pump.I use the trigger.The slide comes back with recoil,then as I recover from recoil,the slide hand pushes to the target.Its pretty fast.Not even close to the Bennelli,though.
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Old May 25, 2011, 06:49 AM   #30
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Alot depends on WHICH pump and which Semi-auto we are talking about.

I have quite a few sporting shotguns...none are short barrel models...never saw a point in the combat shotguns once I was out of the military. I've always figured if I have to use it for HD, a BG won't care if the shotgun he gets shot with doesn't have a pistol grip or a short barrel .

Anyways:
I own an 11-87, Benelli M2 and an old M1, Model 101 O/U, Browning Gold Hunter, and an old Winchester Mod. 12 (16 gauge) was my grandpappy's (probably only a few years after dropping the exposed hammer). (Notice the Duck gun theme!)

The old Model 12 you just hold down the trigger and operated the slide while holding down the trigger (I think they were called riot triggers?), not sure how many are like that anymore. Each time you brought the slide forward it fired and kicked the slide back basically. Can usually keep the pellets on a "person size target at 25 yds.

The few times a year we shoot the 16ga, we can run 5 shells through it faster than the 11-87 or Browning Gold can cycle 5 shells. We can not beat the Benelli's though.
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Old May 25, 2011, 07:21 AM   #31
Jeff F
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Quote:
There were some slow semi-autos. There are some fast pumpgun shooters. The slowest modern semi is considerably faster than the fastest pumpgun to fire, extract, eject, load, get back on target and fire again.

No-one seriously says differently anymore and hasn't for a few decades...
In a time long long ago I would agree that in an experts hands a pump was faster then an auto. But not in todays world.
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Old May 25, 2011, 08:10 AM   #32
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I agree with the above post...I can work a pump almost shot for shot on a semi auto..but I said almost...the new semis I have not beaten
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Old May 25, 2011, 09:45 AM   #33
jmr40
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I still think we are splitting hairs here. Technically the semi is faster, no argument from me here. But look at Tom Knapps records. 8 shots with a pump in 1.87 seconds. 10 shots with an auto in 2.2 seconds. You could probably at least double those times for the average shooter, but it proves that if someone is willing to learn how to run a pump gun it can be plenty fast for it's purposes.

I can't think of a hunting or SD situation where the extra speed of the auto would matter. FWIW, I have used a pump a lot and consider myself pretty fast with one, but primarily use an auto now. Not because of faster shots, but more reliable shooting. While the pump is more reliable from a mechanical standpoint I've found that I am the weak link and I'm more likely to short stroke a pump than have an auto fail.
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Old May 25, 2011, 09:58 AM   #34
Brian Pfleuger
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I think the reference to professional shooters is only to point out that even they can't fire a pump as fast as an auto. Yeah, it's "close" but it's STILL slower, and that giving the pump every possible advantage.

Point being, if they can't do it, it's hopeless for the common man.

An archery analogy.... I know guys who can shoot bows that have inherent weaknesses in their accuracy potential (like ultrashort brace heights) just as well as they can shoot much more forgiving bows.
That's a fact. What's not a fact, is that their ability to do so somehow suggests that those bows are "just as accurate" as the more forgiving bows in the hands of a less than good shooter.

We put them in the hands of the best in the world and say "See! I told you!" but those things simply to not extrapolate to "real" people.
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Old May 25, 2011, 10:05 AM   #35
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"I can't think of a hunting or SD situation where the extra speed of the auto would matter."
I can, after you engage your first "target" the second or third or whatever after the first, it could/would matter.
It's not close - Flanigan's record 12 shots in 1.42 seconds is about twice as fast as even the greatest of all time could shoot a pump action. So it's not close but that does not mean that a pump action is not an option.
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Old May 26, 2011, 01:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Flanigan's Xtreme Team Facebook page
Tune in June 8th at 130pm or 930pm to the Outdoor Channel for an all new Episode of Shooting USA’s “Impossible Shots”. This will be my first television appearance with my new firearms sponsor, Mossberg and what better way to break in my new Mossberg’s then by attempting to break some of my old records?? It’s a new show, a new sponsorship and a new world record! Dont miss this one!!
Looks like he's going to get even faster.....
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Old May 26, 2011, 02:34 PM   #37
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He is already faster with the 500 over the SXP and we will see if the 930 will beat the SX3 - I think that will be tough.
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Old May 26, 2011, 02:50 PM   #38
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"Back-in-the-day" when I was still shooting USPSA matches. We would have side matches, shooting steel/pepper poppers with shotguns. Bcause of the turn out, we had classes, and an overall winner. Major Shotgun (12 Ga.) and Minor shotgun (20 Ga.). We found, that the different between the 12 & 20 was very little to none, But the differents between Semi and Pump was huge, so big in fact that the Major/Minor was dropped, and was replaced with a Pumper Class and a Semi Class. After we had a Pump-Winner and a Semi-Winner. We would then change the course around and the top Pumper and the top Semi would shoot-off for overall winner. The 20 ga. semi dominated these matches.
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Last edited by Bones; May 26, 2011 at 06:04 PM.
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Old May 26, 2011, 04:12 PM   #39
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I don't own a pump gun, but have fired at least a dozen over the years. I can certainly shoot my Moss 930 SPX far quicker than any of the pumps I've used.
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Old May 26, 2011, 05:34 PM   #40
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I would be interested in seeing a pump vs. a semiauto with full powered 00 buck loads.

My experience is that a semiauto is much faster with birdshot. My theory is that the gap will start to close when 00 buck is used. The semi will be faster. But, not by as much.
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Old May 26, 2011, 05:46 PM   #41
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Had a hunting buddy who was quite effective with his A-5. We established that I could get off a second shot with an 870 before he could with his auto.

Neither an 870 nor an A-5 are the fastest cycling examples of their kind. For pumps, probably the Ithaca is the slickest, and my guess is one of the Benellis is the fastest auto currently made.

But it's a non issue in the real world. EITHER style will serve well in trained hands. So, pick one and train,train,train.......
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Old May 26, 2011, 11:00 PM   #42
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Yep, the A-5 was eclipsed some years ago, and its eclipsers have been eclipsed, too. Anecdotally the A-5 was favored by smokers: You could shoot an old Browning, get our a cigarette, and still have time to let the reciprocating barrel auto-strike your match before the action stopped cycling.
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Old May 26, 2011, 11:29 PM   #43
.300 Weatherby Mag
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Quote:
For pumps, probably the Ithaca is the slickest, and my guess is one of the Benellis is the fastest auto currently made.
Dave,

Have you shot a model 12?? The 37s are slick, but I think the model 12 is faster...
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Old May 27, 2011, 08:44 AM   #44
Dave McC
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300, I've shot several 12s, and they are very nice shuckers. Almost neck and neck with the 37. However, IMO the 37 is slightly faster. Some 12s seem to shuck themselves when you just THINK about it, but all 37s do.

A decent example of either is a fine shotgun.....
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Old May 27, 2011, 09:20 AM   #45
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The comment about the Auto 5 is nonsense, in my experience...
I have a Remington Model 11 riot gun...I have rapid fired it from the hip so quickly that all five empties were in the air together in a tight line flying from the ejection port. This was done using standard 00 Buck 8 pellet loads at a target about 25 yds out, and all the shots stayed on a silhouette.
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Old May 27, 2011, 02:51 PM   #46
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Just tried it again last night. I didn't have anybody timing me so my sense of time is subjective not objective. If the objective is to just empty your gun quickly the semi wins hands down but on target, (in this case 1 liter water bottles set up at 8 yards in a semi circle around me), I could tell no difference between my pump action shooting time and my semi-auto shooting time. More time with the new gun may change that but right now 40 years with a pump rules the day for me. Either way a deer, turkey or boogerman is in trouble if I have either in my hand and they are loaded with appropriate loads.

Moot point for most of us I would think based on my own personal experience. Not many of us can afford the cases of day training time the pro's get.
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Old May 27, 2011, 04:51 PM   #47
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This Link may interest those who think a pump is fast.

The semi-auto is a Beretta 1201FP shooting birdshot at IDPA targets at 20 yards. You can easily see that I was not familiar with pulling the trigger that fast.

I learned a lot that day. Mainly that this shotgun will beat the &^*^&#^$^% out of me.
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Old May 27, 2011, 06:40 PM   #48
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Old May 27, 2011, 08:31 PM   #49
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Since we know that experts shoot semi-autos much faster than pump actions it appears that there is less difference with non-experts which means non-experts are not taking advantage of all the semi-auto has to offer.
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Old May 27, 2011, 10:53 PM   #50
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I suspect if you shoot couple thousand rounds/yr and practice multiple shots you could get pretty fast..
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