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Old May 22, 2011, 09:11 AM   #26
C0untZer0
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See, I find this statement interesting:

Quote:
I normally carry a RIA CS, but I got bored last week and started carrying my old S&W 469. Both are 3.5 inch and I carry a second magazine for the RIA.
It speaks again to the idea that the pistol is not strictly a tool but also a source of satisfaction or entertainment.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449980

If the firearm is really just a tool, with no emotional or ego component, it would be like saying "I was fixing my bathroom doorknob last week, I was bored with my Stanley screwdriver so I switched to a Craftsman"
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Old May 22, 2011, 10:10 AM   #27
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Some helpful suggestions

1. Carry "cocked and locked" , ALL THE TIME- evil doesn't make appointments, and it doesn't fight fairly, either.
2. Get some good training- enroll at Front Sight or some other training center to develop skills and proficiency.
3. Try different guns- we all have our own likes/dislikes.
4. Practice, practice, practice- just as you did during Basic Training in the military! They drill and drill until they're certain you know it.
5. Make sure you have the proper equipment.
6. Finally, carry DAILY with what YOU FEEL most comfortable and confident with!
Hope this helps.
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Old May 22, 2011, 10:32 AM   #28
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Thanks to all for the advice, it has been very helpful, thoughtful and productive.

I've been reading a lot.

The more I read, the more I am considering something that I will carry more often.

Initially I was thinking about a small 1911 style .45, but just don't see myself carrying that often. I do want a manual safety and something medium sized and lightweight yet powerful. I understand the differences between DAO, DA, SA/DA... but don't know what I would consider best for concealed carry as they all have their benefits. (so many choices) I could do .380 if I was really wowed by the new defense ammunition rounds. I would be entirely comfortable with 9mm/40/45. I need to get to a gun shop and check them out in person I know, but nice to narrow it down beforehand.
So I am currently considering the following...

Ruger LCP (top choice so far)

Ruger LC9
Kimber Solo
Sig 238
Taurus 609
Taurus 700
Taurus millenium pro
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Old May 22, 2011, 11:39 AM   #29
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Actually, I think the smallest .45s in an Auto are the M1911s like this one.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/Colt...entSeries.aspx



There are some deringer types in .45, but that isn't what your looking for.

I have a Kimber, I never tried any of the smaller .45s before and bought this one on impulse without research. As it turns out it looks like it's a fine gun, and I think the Colts make some good guns too, I wouldn't be afraid of buying a Defender. But you don't need anything this big to get the job done. I also have a SIG P238 like like some of the others here and I would carry it first before the Kimber because, it's easier to carry.


Notice any similarities


I don't intend to use it to scare someone off. I will carry it in case I need it. If the day comes and I need it, I will wait until I must and then I will pull it out and use it. I will not pull it and then see if I have to use it. It's like a smaurai sword, you pull it you can't put it back till it tastes blood. Therefore, knowing and believing this I will not pull it unless I know I must kill someone, not for flash.
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Old May 22, 2011, 11:57 AM   #30
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I've carried everything from a Kimber Pro Carry, Glock 19, Glock 20, S&W 1006, Springfield XD45, Witness 10mm, Kel-tec P3AT and PF9 and everything seems to come back to a DAO mid size semi auto as my favorite.

During the cool season I use my XD-45. Summer time has recently been taken over CCW duties to the PF9 for now. Out in the bush, its my 10MM Witness.

For me it depends on what I'm doing that day. But for the last 3 years it has been my XD-45. Now that I'm back in Arizona, Its too damn hot to wear an undershirt so I went with the pocket carry PF9.

I think it takes a CCW carrier several years to find the one that they like the most. As you can tell by what I've carried, its still a work in progress.

Find the gun that you like the most, give it a try and see if you are comfortable with it. What we like may not ride right on your body, feel good in your hands or is available to you. On that note, carry rigs make a big difference as well. I probably have at least 50 different hosters in a box that I've tried.

Good luck on your quest for the perfect CCW platform.
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Old May 22, 2011, 12:01 PM   #31
KyJim
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Your potential choices are all over the board. You need to narrow down the criteria some. First, do you want to pocket carry (in a pocket holster)? If so, that would leave the following possibles:

Ruger LC9
Kimber Solo
Sig 238

I threw out the Taurus pistols as they have an uneven reputation for quality. Some work great while others don't. Their customer service sucks. Their lifetime warranty means you'll be waiting a lifetime for warranty work --- okay, maybe that's a little over the top.

I love the Sig 238 and carry it. However, I would not recommend it for those not used to carrying with a single action, cocked and locked. In concept, the Ruger LC9 and Kimber Solo would be better because they are DAO. They can fit a decent sized pocket, not small ones.

My suggestion, however, is to look at the Kahr series, either the CW9 or the newly released CM9. The CW9 has a 3.6 inch barrel and the CM9 has the 3 inch barrel and holds one less round. The trigger pull is much better than either the Ruger or Kimber (at least dry firing).
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Old May 22, 2011, 12:07 PM   #32
lcpiper
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Cool, alot of fine guns in that list. Last thing, the gun thing is addictive, the proof is right here.

"Hello, my name is John and I am a gun nut"

Don't think of this as the only gun you'll ever buy. It might turn out that way, but the odds say otherwise. I bought a Bodyguard for the wife and 1 day after she shot it I traded it in on the SIG P238. She couldn't pull the long DA trigger on the Bodyguard. It only cost me $25 loss on the trade in cause the Bodyguards are sell hot right now. The stores here can't keep them in stock. LCPs are sitting on the shelves and not selling so you might get a good deal on them but they might be harder to trade in.

Try and shoot some of these before puchase, make you can eliminate a couple on your list, and maybe even add some. You should find a shorty .45 and shoot it, see what it's like. And a .40 like an EMP, and the smaller 9mm SIGs, CZs, HiPowers. Just get a feel for each class.

With the pocket pistols there is a wide variety with different feels. An example, the LCP is like a small gun, you throw it in your pocket, if you need it you pull it and start squeezing that trigger, no safety, no foolin around. It's different with the SIG P238. It's a little pistol that still feels like it's bigger brothers, the trigger is SA so it's crisp and has a real break to it. The safety is perfectly safe but you do have to purposefully pull it, swipe the safety, then squeeze. It's about 6 ounces heavier then the LCP and you can get extended mags that hold one additional round for 7+1 max capacity. Not often mentioned is that the SIG does have a feature that most M1911 format pistols lack, You can pull the slide and eject a chambered round without taking it off safe. This I like alot because it means I can load a mag, chamber the first round, place it on safe, and eject, top off the mag, and I am ready. Time to unload and all you have to do is drop the mag, clear the chamber and your done and you don't have to take it off safe to clear it.

P.S. Don't let smaller .380 caliber fool you, the really light .380s are a handfull to hang onto and can even punish your hands somewhat. The LCP is like that, not fun to shoot for most people, doesn't mean it's not effective for it's purpose. The SIG P238 is a little easier, and there are others like the Bersa .380 Thunder that are very nice shooters, just not a pocket gun but do fit easily IWB because they are narrow, think Walther PPK style. Of course once you get to this size you are also crossing into the smaller 9mm and .40 size pistols, have abandoned pocket carry and looking at a IWB or belt holster and the whole carry range is opening up.

Last edited by lcpiper; May 22, 2011 at 12:18 PM.
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Old May 22, 2011, 02:20 PM   #33
C0untZer0
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Rohrbaugh R9
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:2.9in
Length:5.2in
Height:3.7in
Weight:13.5oz
Magazine Capacity:6 Rounds





Attached Images
File Type: jpg p95-336.jpg (34.0 KB, 282 views)
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Old May 22, 2011, 02:31 PM   #34
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Simple as possible with night sights.

For me that is either Glock, S&W M&P, Springfield XD and the like. No locks. No mag disconnects. No manual safeties.
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Old May 22, 2011, 02:37 PM   #35
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I believe the smallest 45 auto on the market is the Kahr PM45
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Old May 22, 2011, 02:42 PM   #36
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Reliable
Small to mid size (for pocket or IWB with t-shirt/shorts)
Lightweight
DAO
No manual safety

Putting these together my two CCWs are my:

HK USP Compact (with LEM trigger) & Kahr CW9
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Old May 22, 2011, 03:32 PM   #37
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All I know is go small.

I'm having a heck of a time carrying my Sig 2022, but the Bersa pictured above is fine for either pocket or holster carry.
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Old May 22, 2011, 03:41 PM   #38
tape
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I carry a Glock 20 and live in the south, a good belt and holster will aid in good cc, I usually wear a t-shirt with a shirt unbuttoned over it and have very well cc, I don't think ppl are looking at one to see if they are carrying a weapon.
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Old May 22, 2011, 04:01 PM   #39
TeamSinglestack
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Some other points to consider...

How often are you willing train and condition yourself?

-If you realistically will not train frequently with your chosen arm, than I would recommend going for a simple "point and press" arm so you don't have to worry about thumb safeties or grip safeties.
-Springer XD series, Smith M&P series both come in compact models, and have been tested and approved for use by LEO agencies across the land.

Bottom line: Manual and grip safeties can be challenging to operate under stress without frequent training and conditioning. Point and press weapons alleviate this potential issue.

Will you realistically be discouraged by weight?

-Some folks lack the intestinal fortitude to adapt to certain handguns due to weight issues.
-A .380 carried every day is better than a .45 left at home because it's "too heavy".

Bottom line: Get something you are willing to carry EVERY day and EVERYWHERE you legally can, even if it's a .380.

Are you willing to modify your wardrobe to accommodate your gun?

-There isn't a defensive gun on the market that can't be carried concealed with the right wardrobe, be it casual or formal attire.
-Some folks aren't willing to buy larger clothes, lose weight, or adjust their style to accommodate their arm of choice.

Bottom line: Buy a gun you can conceal with the wardrobe of your choice.

On defense......

Stopping threats is the goal of the armed citizen. Threats are stopped in 1 of 2 ways: 1.) The mental stop, and 2.) The physical stop.

Mental stops occur because the threat recognizes the firearm and does NOT want to get shot, so they stop their threat and either surrender or attempt to evade. Mental stops also occur due to a threat being shot, and in their desire NOT to be shot AGAIN, they stop their action and either surrender or attempt to evade despite the fact they are still capable of physically continuing their threatening action. This is the most common type of defensive stop.

ALL firearms, regardless of size or caliber, have the potential to achieve a mental stop.

Physical stops occur because the threat is physically damaged to such a degree that they can no longer physically continue their threatening action. Death, unconsciousness, or significant skeletal structural damage are examples of a physical stop.

ALL firearms, regardless of size or caliber, have the potential to achieve a physical stop. HOWEVER, the more powerful the firearm, the greater the POTENTIAL to rapidly achieve a physical stop.


Good luck with your decision.
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Old May 22, 2011, 05:14 PM   #40
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TeamSinglestack wrote:
Quote:
Some folks lack the intestinal fortitude to adapt to certain handguns due to weight issues.
Interesting choice of words...am I gutless for wanting a lightweight CCW?
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Old May 22, 2011, 05:25 PM   #41
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After doing extensive research and trying various guns at the local rental range, I decided on the Springfield XD40 sub compact. I liked the trigger better than the Glock and the M&P and I seemed to shoot tighter groups with the XD as well.

The XD comes with a small flush fitting magazine that holds 9+1 of 40 S&W. I added a small grip extension so that I can get a full grip on the gun whne firing. This coupled with a 3" barrel provides great concealability, especially with an IWB holster. If things get really bad, the gun comes with a full sized magazine of 12+1 that, when inserted, makes a full sized grip in the pistol. Additionally, the gun comes with a magazine speedloader, an OWB holster, and a magazine holder all inside of a hard case all for $440.

The reason I chose to go with the 40 S&W was for the versatility. In most popular gun makes (i.e. SIG, Glock, M&P, XD) that are chambered in 40 cal, you can also buy a conversion barrel to convert to 9mm and 357 SIG. I plan on purchasing the 9mm conversion barrel soon so that when I go to the range for a long session, I can shoot the cheap 9mm but when I carry, I will have the 40 S&W. This will help me to practice with my carry gun and not break the bank.

I would highly recommend finding a rental range and trying out some of the guns you have listed, as well as a few others (hint:XD ). I was set on wanting a Glock until I shot the XD. Good luck to you!
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Old May 22, 2011, 05:52 PM   #42
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First off, thanks for your service to our country. We appreciate your sacrifice.

Secondly, I'd look at the following pistols if non-Glock is on your list:

Sig P238 (great little gun, factory night sights, easy to carry in hot/humid climates)
Sig P239 SAS Gen 2 (bigger gun, but not too big, comes in a variety of killer calibers, factory night sights, very accurate)
CZ 75 D PCR COMPACT or P-01 (Light alloy frame, beautiful grip, very accurate)
S&W M&P 9C or 40C (Great ergonoics, good sights)
Springfield XDM 3.8 (Tough, accurate 9 or 40, and comes with extended mag)
Kahr CW series (tight, accurate, variety of calibers)

That's my list for now.
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Old May 22, 2011, 05:53 PM   #43
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Quote:
Rohrbaugh R9
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:2.9in
Length:5.2in
Height:3.7in
Weight:13.5oz
Magazine Capacity:6 Rounds
slide width = 0.812 in
PRICE AROUND $1,000

Kahr CM9 --
Caliber: 9mm
Barrel: 3 in
Length: 5.42 in
Height: 4.0 in
Weight: 14 oz
Slide width: 0.9 in
Magazine capacity: 6 rounds
PRICE AROUND $420
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Last edited by KyJim; May 22, 2011 at 05:58 PM.
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Old May 22, 2011, 06:32 PM   #44
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Thanks for that comparison KyJim... I'm still predicting that the Kahr CM9 will eventually become one of the most popular guns ever... The Ruger LC9 is flying off the shelves these days due to Ruger brand loyalty and great timing - (following up on the huge success of the LCP) - but the reliable Kahr CM9 is significantly smaller... IMHO the pocket 9's in general will become a tidal wave in sales over the next few years.
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Old May 22, 2011, 06:41 PM   #45
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No easy answer

I have learned it is always a compromise and there is no one answer. That is why I have so many handguns and I am never fully satisfied. However, I am more satisfied lately with all the choices. The single biggest feature is reliability. After that, I want something that is simple and has nothing unique to remember, such as a safety or a switch to look for to activate the laser, if so equipped. Basically, I want to grab aim and squeeze the trigger. Following the basic logic kept me with revolvers for years. Lately, I have also added DAO automatics from Kahr and Glock.

In summary, keep things simple so you can operate when you are not at your best.
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Old May 22, 2011, 07:27 PM   #46
KyJim
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Quote:
I'm still predicting that the Kahr CM9 will eventually become one of the most popular guns ever..
It will be a week or two before I get mine. I was very impressed with the way it felt and it had the best trigger for that class of gun I've tried. I'm hoping it shoots as well as I think it will. I respect the Ruger (I have the LCP) but dislike the trigger.
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Old May 22, 2011, 07:45 PM   #47
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Since the OP said he wanted a manual safety, it seems that the Rohrbaugh R9 and all Kahrs are out of consideration.

I like my Kahr PM40 for when my 1911 is a bit too heavy, like when I wear a suit and can't use my gun belt to carry the load.

I need a new gun belt.
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Old May 22, 2011, 08:06 PM   #48
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Thanks for for the gentle reprimands and encouraging me to think this thing out thoroughly.

Nice explanation of mental/physical stop.

I've had multiple guns over the years, but after firing the M16/M4 and M249 SAW machine gun for years, I'm not much into shooting guns for fun anymore. 10 machine guns going, firing tracers, lighting the range on fire at night is hard to beat. Although some plinking w a 22 or shooting clay pigeons is fun from time to time.

I do plan on shooting whatever I carry to get proficient with it, understand it's limitations, what ammo it likes and how to handle it safely and efficiently and in as close to real world conditions as I can replicate at a range.

I do want a safety. I plan on carrying with an empty chamber, safety on. Overkill in terms of safety, yes, I know. I've never had an negligent discharge and will do everything I can to prevent that. I am not comfortable carrying a gun without a safety (I know, keep your booger hook off the trigger).

Regarding how I will carry. I think pocket carry or a small holster is most practical for me.

So I think I'm looking at .380 up to .40 possibly? But looks like .45 is out.

The following is what I am specifically looking for then. I've geeked out and made a spreadsheet with your suggestions.

.380/9mm or possibly .40. (once I decide on the gun/caliber, I'll have to consider ammo selection)
6-8 rounds?
SA/DA or DAO so long as it has a safety
should be honest with myself and have some kind of budget (max $500ish?)
admit I like the laser grips but don't think I NEED them
stainless or other corrosion resistant material
lightweight to relatively lightweight 10-25 ounces (big range I know)
and many other things I'm not thinking of

Thanks for the thoughtful comments, I will include my spreadsheet as an attachment soon.
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Old May 22, 2011, 08:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
I understand the differences between DAO, DA, SA/DA... but don't know what I would consider best for concealed carry as they all have their benefits.
Keep in mind that a majority of the DA firearms will not have a manual safety. IMO, they are one of the best available for CC due to the consistent trigger pull (this coming from a DA/SA type of guy). I always thought I wanted a manual safety for each of my firearms... then I bought a Kahr.

As mentioned though, your choices are all over the place. If you are set on IWB carry, then I would go with the largest handgun that you could comfortably carry (maybe a small 1911). If you are open to .380, then maybe you are considering pocket carry as well. For those, you will be a little more limited when looking for something with a manual safety. Maybe the PM9 w/safety, although I think those can be pretty pricey.

I think once you get to a shop, you will have a better idea. Maybe you could swing by your LGS and come up with a list of guns that you are considering. Since you've shot handguns in the past, you might want to pick out a specific caliber and then go from there. Right now you've got .380/9mm/.40/.45, so I think you've covered just about everything.
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Old May 22, 2011, 08:19 PM   #50
KyJim
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Quote:
Since the OP said he wanted a manual safety, it seems that the Rohrbaugh R9 and all Kahrs are out of consideration.
You're right. He asks about whether he should get a safety or not in his first couple of posts but decides at post 21 he wants a safety. Oh well, that narrows the field down quite a bit.
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