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Old May 16, 2011, 08:23 PM   #1
tyrajam
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Philly OC'er held at gunpoint, charged

If you have a weak stomach, don't read this article. Fiorino was minding his own business when a uniformed officer came up behind, held him at gunpoint, told him (incorrectly) OCing is illegal, threatened to kill him, cuffed him, and cussed him out for 40 minutes until dispach finally told him open carry is legal. Now Fiorino is being charged by the DA with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct. Complete and utter lawlessness in Philly, from the cops and the DA. This is just unfreaking believable.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/st...y-carrying-gun
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Old May 16, 2011, 08:30 PM   #2
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#1 Get a really good lawyer.

#2 Sue the pants of everybody involved for a whole hellacious amount of money.

#3 Remove the DA and send the cop somewhere for remedial education and a severe attitude adjustment.
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Old May 16, 2011, 09:25 PM   #3
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I listened to the audio on You Tube. Does anyone else think that the guy should have just gotten down on the ground like the cops asked? Why would someone argue with a cop that has a gun pointed at them even if he/she knows that they are not doing anything illegal? Things are already passed the talking phase.
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Old May 16, 2011, 10:35 PM   #4
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this happens in philly all the time
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Old May 17, 2011, 01:54 AM   #5
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The guy by all means should have kept his mouth shut and did what the LEO said. That being said I think this guy was testing the waters on purpose to get something on tape. I do not have a problem with that either. But if a cop tells you to do something your best to do it. Once an LEO goes down that road there is no turning back. Your talking about a ******* contest that could go wrong real quick.
Do what your told now, save everyone's face, raise hell later.

I bet all the Philly LEO's know the law now.
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Old May 17, 2011, 02:14 AM   #6
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Has anyone confirmed the Philly law?

If the CCL guy was right about his rights the Officers have a lot more to answer to than he does. I doubt the law states that LEO's can flip out and then let go anyone who is following the law.

The thing here that bothers me the most is not the way anyone behaved, it is why was there a miscommunication of the this magnitude? Someone could be dead over this. Why was there confusion in the first place?
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Old May 17, 2011, 07:34 AM   #7
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Sounds like a lot of people need to get together at a public rally, inform the police they will be exercising their right to carry and then have a picnic. The police would be hard pressed to arrest twenty or thirty people who are peacefully carrying at a preplanned event.

Send notices to local media outlets and inform them of the event and why it was being held.

The cop needs to be fired for the abusive language he used. It sounds like he was the one who was trying to escalate the situation.
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Old May 17, 2011, 07:39 AM   #8
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I don't think the police would have a problem with arresting that many people if they had a mind to. Either way, someone is being just a little foolish. The end result may not be what you hoped for.
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Old May 17, 2011, 07:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
The guy by all means should have kept his mouth shut and did what the LEO said. That being said I think this guy was testing the waters on purpose to get something on tape.
Yup. Streetside with a beat cop is not the place to argue your rights. Later in court is the place for that battle.
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Old May 17, 2011, 08:13 AM   #10
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Over at GlockTalk there are four or five threads following this one, and they include links to audio recordings of the event. They can be found in the Carry Issues form.
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Old May 17, 2011, 08:18 AM   #11
cloud8a
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I started a thread in Tactics that has the audio as well, here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA
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Old May 17, 2011, 08:18 AM   #12
LouCap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey View Post
I listened to the audio on You Tube. Does anyone else think that the guy should have just gotten down on the ground like the cops asked? Why would someone argue with a cop that has a gun pointed at them even if he/she knows that they are not doing anything illegal? Things are already passed the talking phase.
I agree with you 100%. Comply first, argue (or litigate) later.

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Old May 17, 2011, 08:43 AM   #13
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Here is an update. They have charged him with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct. He apparently endangered everyone's life by making the cops respond aggressively because they did not know the law.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...cal&id=8133516
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Old May 17, 2011, 09:17 AM   #14
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Here are some facts:

This type of response has become a regular occurrence in Philly. In spite of the fact that all police departments in the Commonwealth having been informed that open carry is legal. That information is now a standard as part of officer training.

Yes, it could have been worse. Case in point, there was an ODPPD who shot a young man by the name of Josh Taylor for doing nothing other than openly carrying a handgun. Mr Taylor is in critical condition and has been in hospital for over a month. Story here:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...120656234.html

This past weekend an open carry march/rally/protest was held in the city of Philadelphia to highlight this very issue. Approximately 30 people attended without incident. Info about that here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ0bbVQjFNM

There is much more info available at:

http://forum.pafoa.org/
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Old May 17, 2011, 10:00 AM   #15
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Another fact worthy of note is that the city of Philadelphia has a mayor and city council who are openly anti-gun, in spite of the laws of the Commonwealth.

It needs pointing out that the job of public officials/public servants is to uphold the law not go with their own program regardless of what the legislature has enacted as the law.
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Old May 17, 2011, 11:46 AM   #16
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I listened to the whole thing. Honestly, I think the cop was just genuinely afraid of getting shot and was acting accordingly. Once he learned that the guy was no threat he sounded like a fairly reasonable guy.

The backup guys were much more aggressive, but then if you look at it from their point of view - all they know is, they've been called to the scene where an officer is confronting an armed individual and needs backup. So they naturally err on the side of caution.

Really, the guy could have been more reasonable with the cops. It wouldn't have killed him to comply with the original officer's instructions. He could have continued to protest verbally without any risk. I agree that the cops were ultimately in the wrong - they don't know the law, and they should. But all the same, the way the thread and the article are presented, I was expecting a blatant, wanton abuse of the guys civil rights, and I just don't see it here.
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Old May 17, 2011, 11:52 AM   #17
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What is the PA law as to CC? Is that an option?

I ask because this is exactly the response I'd expect if I OC'd in my city, Seattle. Despite the fact that OC is perfectly legal.
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Old May 17, 2011, 12:06 PM   #18
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In philly you can open carry as long as you have a valid concealed carry license.
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Old May 17, 2011, 01:10 PM   #19
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Philly law on open carry is different from the rest of PA. The man did have a permit and he should not have been hassled.




Quote:

Do I need a permit to open carry in PA?



A PA License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) is needed to open carry in a vehicle and cities of the first class (Philadelphia)


http://paopencarry.org/open-carry-questions-answers#2
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Old May 17, 2011, 01:30 PM   #20
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You don't see it?,,,

Quote:
I was expecting a blatant, wanton abuse of the guys civil rights, and I just don't see it here.
Perhaps I am thin skinned,,,
But no one on this shiny green planet,,,
Has the right to curse at me and expect me to submit.

Cops are not supposed to be thugs.

Wait until this happens to you and see if your attitude doesn't change a bit.
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Old May 17, 2011, 02:02 PM   #21
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Is this going to be a replay of the practical vs. theoretical?

Don't comply and get shot because of your theoretical right?

Comply and complain later?

Reason for doing such - making the theoretical statement to expand rights? Noble cause and you take the risk vs. you were carrying for the practical self-defense issue?

No cop bashing. Someone being incorrect doesn't generalize to the whole profession - usual warning.
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Old May 17, 2011, 02:14 PM   #22
divil
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Quote:
Perhaps I am thin skinned,,,
But no one on this shiny green planet,,,
Has the right to curse at me and expect me to submit.

Cops are not supposed to be thugs.

Wait until this happens to you and see if your attitude doesn't change a bit.

You're right, I would be very unhappy if it happened to me. Especially the abusive language from the 2nd cop. On the other hand, if a cop approached me and said "hey junior what are you doing there" I wouldn't take offence at that. And if he was genuinely afraid for his safety and wanted me to get on the ground until he could check my license etc., then I would. I might complain afterwards.

Bear in mind, the shouting and cursing starts at around 2 minutes 20 seconds into the confrontation. By that time, the officer has already made it clear that he's concerned because he doesn't know anything about the guy and doesn't know why he's carrying a gun, and that he believes it's against the law. The guy still hasn't done anything to make the cop feel safer except say that he has a license.

Later, the cop explains that his reaction was based on the guys attitude when he first accosted him - the whole "who-are-you-calling-junior" routine. It doesn't excuse the officer's mistake, or the language and aggressive behavior of the other officer who came afterwards. But I do think the guy could have avoided this much trouble without sacrificing his right to carry, if he could just look at it from the cop's point of view.
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Old May 17, 2011, 02:23 PM   #23
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As I have said several times in the past... The police work for the people. Every police officer owes to every citizen reasonable behaviour. I listened to the recording. I do not believe the Officer was reasonable. At worse the officer had a case of mere possesion of a firearm. IMO This is a reflection on not only the individual officer but on his entire department.

I probably would nave not gotten down on the ground either. I may well have been shot. It seems to me that lately standing up to the police is grounds for all kinds of abusive behaviour. My personal opinion is this trend is becoming the rule, rather than the exception. The current (Orwellian) newspeak referring to the police as "LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS" only supports, and tends to excuse this bad behavour. The truth is... Other than traffic laws... Law enforcement takes up 10% or less of the average officers time. My personal observation is that the Police have become personal political bullies, and use local, state, and federal laws to propagate various political ideals.

Many people fear being pointed out as not supporting the police. I'm not one of those. I support the police, in most everything they do. It's a tough thankless job. But I refuse to excuse bad behaviour from someone because they have a tough thankless job.

More rant to come...LOL
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Old May 17, 2011, 03:05 PM   #24
divil
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My personal observation is that the Police have become personal political bullies, and use local, state, and federal laws to propagate various political ideals.
I'm inclined to agree with this. And if I thought this was a case of that happening (which I did until I listed to the recording) I would say the guy did the right thing. Instead what I heard was a street cop in a rough city who has probably known or known of colleagues who are dead because they didn't take the precaution of drawing their own gun first. If we had reached the point where cops are pulling their guns to mug people etc. then OK, but it's not like that anywhere in America. In 99% of cases, the cops pull their weapons because their afraid they might be killed if they don't. Taking a somewhat aggressive stance and insisting on the person kneeling etc. is just part of that precautionary behavior. There is not much point in drawing the gun and then getting into an argument. You're either in charge or you're not. Cops are trained to take charge on the street. So why fuel the cop's fear even further?

I think it's fairly clear that the cop in question genuinely thought the guy was breaking the law by carrying openly. So that was his mistake, no question about it. But having made that mistake, his subsequent behavior was not really all that bad (talking about the first cop here, who didn't use much bad language). If a cop thinks someone is carrying a firearm illegally, how should he behave, exactly? That brings it down to the question of whether or not a cop being technically mistaken on a point of law constitutes a serious abuse of civil rights? I don't think it does.
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Old May 17, 2011, 03:13 PM   #25
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I was expecting a blatant, wanton abuse of the guys civil rights, and I just don't see it here.
You do not see it because it is audio not video. I think the abuse of the civil rights comes in when they drew down on a man obeying the law. There are also a code of ethics.

IF YOUR JOB IS TO ENFORCE THE LAWS, KNOW THE LAWS!!!!!
THIS IS NOT A GAME!!!!!!!
KNOW THE LAWS OR FIND ANOTHER JOB THAT DOES NOT MAKE LIFE SOMETIMES DEPEND ON THOSE LAWS!!!!

If firearm safety is a #1 priority knowing the rules for firearms safety is a #1 priority, which means knowing the laws regarding firearms are a firearms saftey issue and should be a #1 PRIORITY!!
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