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Old May 5, 2011, 10:26 PM   #26
denster
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mnero

Simple have a lot read that a lot of money and a lot of time to shoot.
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Old May 6, 2011, 03:43 AM   #27
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SxS

BiPed, As I just posted, I bought a JW 2000 at Big 5 for $259+tax the other day and it works just fine. The finish, fit and feel are well worth the money. For shooting cans in the desert, how much gun do you need? I think this shotgun is all I will ever need.
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Old May 6, 2011, 08:32 AM   #28
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SXS

Bottom line: SXSs are hunting guns. That's what they were made for...not Trap, not skeet, not Sporting Clays, not CAS. Yes, SXSs have been used for all of those sports but they shine in the field more brightly than any other venue.
I suggest that, much as I share BJP's feelings about quality (and I do), there are few SXSs that are going to be put to the 25K test.
As to $400 guns......the used market has been kind to me, though the guns that I have chosen to buy are antiques. Despite that, I hunt with them on a regular basis and have even shot SCs with one.
In one afternoon, I picked up a Parker VH and a LeFever Nitro Special for less than $800 total. Both guns were and are tight and bright. It was the LeFever that I used at Sporting Clays and did well enough that one of the other fellows in the party wanted to borrow it.
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Old May 6, 2011, 10:13 AM   #29
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try one of these on for size before you spend allot of hard earned dough. 50's vintage Stevens 311. This one has the 5100 action and is a 20ga with 28" barrels and real black walnut furniture. I paid all of $200 bucks for the gun and it will last a few more decades...





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Old May 6, 2011, 11:17 AM   #30
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Actually regulation of sxs double shotguns is a much overstated thing. The idea that SxS shotguns whoever makes them are regulated to shoot both barrels to the same point of aim at some predetermined distance is a fallacy.
Denster makes an interesting point, but he may be over generalizing. The makers (and modifiers) of fine shotguns have been known to spend an inordinate amount of time attempting to regulate SxS shotguns for discriminating clients.

A point that is often overlooked is that the SxS is, by it's nature, an inaccurate configuration. Unlike the O/U with its parallel barrels, generally SxS barrels converge at a single point and their accuracy is limited. Think of a attack aircraft with wing guns, there is a sweet spot where that bullets converge; but, at other ranges there is a horizontal separation. It's basically the same principle with a SxS shotgun.

Back in the day when black powder SxS smooth bores were front loaded with a wide variety of charges, scattergun performance, and accuracy weren't consistent. With today's longer range ammo the SxS's lack of accuracy becomes readily apparent. There's a reason why the majority of serious shooters traded in their SxS guns many years ago.

If you're only after a gun for close quarters action and/or nostalgia, then go for a SxS. On the other hand, if you're after a gun that will take advantage of modern ammo, you might be better served with a single barrel or O/U gun.
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Old May 6, 2011, 11:26 AM   #31
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I'm not saying any of you guys are wrong in your approach ( well, that's not true / I'm still not buying a Huglu or a Baikal - even for the grandkids to shoot ) ....but another way to look at this ...and everyone is different in their usage and expectations of quality ...

I probably agree with most of you on the SXS's being used more in the field than in clay games....but let's switch it up to inexpensive O/U's that some shooters want to use in the field and in clays games...

A. ... $ 400 gun and if its a decent value I'm saying it has to go 10,000 shells in its lifetime/before major repairs. At 8 boxes a month - call it 2,000 shells a yr / or 10,000 shells in 5 yrs. At $400 and 10,000 shells fired that equates to $ 40 per 1,000 targets fired.

B. ..... $ 3,000 Browning O/U Citori XS Skeet model with adj comb 30" barrels ( a gun, that I say, will fit 99.9% of shooters very well ) ...not a fancy gun / but a solid workhorse. I can attest it will easily go 250,000 shells without any major issues ( and I have at least 2 of them / that are currently doing that and more )... 250,000 shells may seem like a lot but its common for a semi-serious shooter to fire 15,000 shells a yr as a local competitive shooter - sporting clays, etc ( 25 boxes a month in competition / 25 boxes a week in practice ).

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...-comb-firearms

You can buy Browning Citori's - like the Lightning - for $ 1,500 but the XS Skeet model has more adjustability / its not any stronger than the Lightning ....but for the sake of my comparison call it a $3,000 gun / it lists for more but $3K will get this gun, new in box, in my area ...

$3,000 @ 250,000 shells is $ 12 per 1,000 shells .....
-------------------
The question is - what's the better buy .... the $40 per 1,000 shell gun or the $ 12 per 1,000 shell guns ......

Take into account resale value ....what is that $400 gun worth in 5 yrs ... $100 or $50 ...maybe ...
What is that $3,000 gun worth in 5 yrs ( even with 75,000 shells thru it ) ...$ 2,500 maybe $ 2,750 ...(because Brownings prices will go up about 6% a yr at least on new guns ...)...or at least they have for the last 15 yrs ..
------------------
I didn't always have $3K to spend on a gun / or the money to enter tournaments (target fees, travel, etc ) or shoot 15,000 shells a yr ....so like a lot of guys, for many years, I shot a Browning BPS ... 8 or 10 boxes a month maybe ...did some hunting, etc ... ( and I still have that gun that I paid around $ 125 for in the mid 1970's ) ....
-------------------
But my point is --- that if you can afford a better quality gun ...maybe it pays off in the long run.
------------------
For what its worth ....I hunt upland birds with the Citori XS Skeet models as well as shoot Skeet and Sporting Clays with them ...not as much as I did 15 yrs ago ...and yes, they have a few marks on them / but even in a duck blind ...or on a Phesant hunt - you can still be careful with a nice gun ( it doesn't have to be a boat paddle )....and if, god forbid, you drop it or scratch it badly ...well winter time is a nice time to sand it out / repair the dumb-butt scratches a little if you have to ...

Just my perspective - there is no wrong or right answer probably .../ if one buyer thinks about this analysis ...I'm content ...regardless of what decision they make.

Last edited by BigJimP; May 6, 2011 at 11:36 AM.
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Old May 6, 2011, 11:44 AM   #32
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I haven't met a person who's fired 30,000 shells, let alone 250,000...

I've probably fired 400 in 5 years hunting (mostly shotgun, maybe 15% rifle), but I'm looking to get into trap, skeet, and maybe some longer range rifle work now so that is probably going to double this year.

I've had my eye on a fairly cheap SxS ($250) that I would use in trap and skeet plus would be my new bird and rabbit gun.

I didn't know SxS's came together at a certain distance, I figured it was like an O/U that would simply fire straight right next to each other giving you "basically" the same shot out each barrel.
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Old May 6, 2011, 12:25 PM   #33
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I haven't met a person who's fired 30,000 shells, let alone 250,000…
Howdy, Murrdock, I've shot more than 30,000 shells in a single season of competition.
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Old May 6, 2011, 12:31 PM   #34
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They should all hit the same spot ....or have the same point of impact..

but if the barrels are not properly constructed ...like the Huglu O/U that an acquaintance bought ...at 21 yards one barrel was high left about 8" and the other barrel was low right about 10" ...or an 18" spread ( which made it next to impossible to hit anything consistently with that gun )....

Qty of shells is relative ...but trust me, there are a lot of even casual competition shooters - shooting at least 5,000 registered targets ( tournament targets a year ) ...and practice at twice that easily ...so 15,000 targets a year isn't uncommon...among competition shooters...

I know quite a few guys that are retired or work for themselves - and they practice 3 days a week ( 2 or 3 hours ) - about 150 targets a day ...and then often shoot either Sat or Sunday/ sometimes both days in local registered shoots ....or easily 600 targets a week and when the regionals and bigger 4 day state tournaments come up -- they shoot at least 1,000 targets over those 4 day events between warm up, the registered shoot, after hours with a few crazy cash games... so call it 30,000 or 35,000 targets a year probably.

Yes, it does take money to do this ( but it takes money to do everything ) ...but if the kids are all grown, you don't have a weekend or 2nd house, don't like to snow-ski, don't like to play golf, don't have a boat, don't like to fish ...for a lot of guys shotgun shooting is a major hobby ....( my problem is I have too many hobbies / and I still work 3 - 4 days a week - because full time retirement would kill me, I'd be so busy .. ) ...

When I was raising kids in my 20's ...I didn't have a lot of extra money for shooting anything ...everything in moderation ..and over time ..../now I'm taking my grandkids shooting ...( so my expenses are up big time ..)...but my wife is very generous and does not make an issue out of it(for time or money ) ...as long as I keep it a little in perspective...
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Old May 6, 2011, 12:32 PM   #35
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and my buddy Zippy speaks up ....( and he's serious ) ..../ and he did it for "many, many years " ....
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Old May 6, 2011, 12:57 PM   #36
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Zippy13 brought up regulation and that some gunmakers will regulate doubles to shoot to a specific point with both barrels for discriminating clients. Let's discuss that a bit. That is possible and you are then limited to that one specific load and spending your time standing square to the patterning board and making it your sole target.
First it is useful to understand what happens that causes side by sides whether they are rifles or shotguns to shoot each barrel to different points of impact with one poiint of aim. Basically it is because the centerline of the bores of each barrel are left and right of the centerline of the gun. When the right barrel is fired recoil pushes the muzzle up and to the right a small amount before the charge leaves the barrel in like manner when the left barrel is fired it moves up and left. What then happens with loads the gun is not regulated for is the right barrel impact on target to the right of the point of aim and the left barrel impacts to the left of the point of aim. For a right handed shooter the left divergence will generally be less due to the support hand on the forend and opposite for a right handed shooter.
To counter this SxS have their chambers paralell at the breech and then at a point, generally at the forend latch hook used as a fulcrum, they are bowed toward the centerline of the gun so that the centerlines of the bores are closer at the muzzles then they are at the breech. There is of course a limit to the amount of convergence towards center that can be built in and it normally is not enough to overcome completly the effects of recoil with shotguns that have light barrels unlike rifles that have significanlty more weight to offset recoil.
It's interesting that if you were to put lasers into the muzzles of a SxS shotgun so that the beams were aligned with the centerline of the bores you would find that the beams intersected generally 9 to 12 feet in front of the muzzles. This is with 20 through 12 Ga it will be somewhat longer with .410.
This amount of convergence is not going to be enough to bring loads to the point they will cross at any point however it is enough that while the left barrel will diverge left and the right barrel will diverge right within the general range of loads for the guage it will not be enough to make any difference.
For example a 12Ga load that diverges 4" right at 15yds and 4" left at the same distance will be off 12"right and 12"left at 35 yds. With the dimensions of the pattern that is not really significant. By the way what I just quoted is about the max you might see.
Also the above is only valid with the gun stationary when fired such as at a patterning board. When you shoot at flying targets and the gun is moving up down left or right the inertia of the moving gun will considerably offset the effects of recoil.
This is what I mean when I say that regulating a shotgun is a fallacy. Shotguns are layed up to be reasonable close with the general range of loads for the guage. That is all that is necessary.
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Old May 6, 2011, 02:08 PM   #37
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Interesting ...

And I know you said 12" left and 12" right is the max ... but that would be a 24" spread between them, if I'm understanding your point correctly...

So with a Modified choke at 35 yds giving you about a 36" pattern ....to center that target in the pattern ...you're going to have to adjust your lead with one barrel vs the other ....on a hard crosser moving right to left ....if you felt like you wanted 8 feet of sustained lead with an O/U on that target .... then with a SXS - you'd want about 7 feet with the left barrel and 9 feet with the right barrel (worst case) ..../ or am I missing something ?

And is that 2 Feet of lead variation / if you're shooting sustained lead ...a big deal ...it seems like a lot of adjustment to make as you switch barrels ...( and another reason why I like shooting O/U's vs SXS's perhaps ...). Shooting a SXS consistently might take more talent than I posess ....( I had wanted to be as quick as a Cat - but I was born like a Buffalo - so this is as good as it gets ...) ......

But interesting ...
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Old May 6, 2011, 02:38 PM   #38
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Jim you didn't read all that I said. I said that the inertia of the moving gun largely overides the effect of recoil. I was only pointing out the fallacy that SxS shotguns are regulated to print both barrels to the same point of aim at a certain distance.
The example I was using was what you might expect to see if you took say a light 12Ga SxS best suited for a snappy 1 Oz upland load and fed it a 1&1/4 mag load.
If such things are important to a person you can adjust the load you use to the gun and get them mighty close. It just won't do much paracticaly except make you feel good.
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Old May 6, 2011, 02:50 PM   #39
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I'll have to think about this some more ...
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Old May 6, 2011, 08:33 PM   #40
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SxS

Well Biped, You asked about a SxS for around $400, Here's one for a lot less than that. I got this one at the Big 5 in Poulsbo, WA for $259+tax. I really don't think it will "burn off" 1/4 of a million shells, but to shoot beer cans out in the desert, "Your In"! Get One and have FUN.
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Old May 6, 2011, 09:45 PM   #41
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Denster,
Let's say you're correct and stipulate:
  • Time and effort spent regulating SxS guns may not have been a wise investments except for very specific applications. And,
  • The resultant vector from the swinging gun's inertia and the eccentric recoil due to the SxS's geometry generally negate any correction by regulation.
Doesn't this serve to reinforce my supposition that the SxS is inherently the least accurate of the common shotgun configurations?
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Old May 6, 2011, 11:14 PM   #42
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Well, I haven't met you personally Zippy, I didn't say people don't do it. I come from a economically depressed region so people can't afford to shoot that much, not to mention the lack of competitions.

I'm sure people who are quite into competition shooting will shoot that much, and people who can afford it (or spend their money on shooting versus other hobbies), but I have way to many expensive hobbies to ever go through that quantity of shells financially.
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Old May 7, 2011, 12:01 AM   #43
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Zippy

You are correct. Regarding how we generally define accuracy the single barrel ie: pumps, autos, etc. are the most accurate followed by the O/U and the SxS bringing up the tail.
That said all are accurate enough and the important thing is the skill of the man behind the gun.
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Old May 7, 2011, 12:27 AM   #44
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The man was just looking for a 'cheap' SXS; all this debate and techno speak may have scared him off I learned alot though
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Old May 7, 2011, 01:06 AM   #45
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Murrdock,

Please see PM.
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Old May 7, 2011, 07:38 AM   #46
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Try your local gun shop, there are some out there you can trust, and telling them your NEW to the gunny world and they won't try to screw you.
If you get this good vibe, you can get a good used o/u or s/s for your price.
They'll be old but they shoot well and you'll be on your way, to a new higher grade gun. Don't waste your money on a Bentley when a Jeep will get you where you need to go.
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Old May 7, 2011, 11:55 AM   #47
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Concerning the discussion about the need (or not the need) for regulating barrels on SXS doubles, I found the following quotation from Charles Askins in his book Modern Shotguns and Loads interesting, if, perhaps, a "bit" dated: "...Double barrels are of course forged in separate tubes, which are then smoothed down to correct shape and put together by soldering. It requires a clever workman to fasten a pair of barrels together so that they will shoot to an exact center, and in fact so adjusting shotgun barrels is a trade of its own. Occasionally at that, a pair of barrels will have to be taken apart and readjusted. Bore sighting is of considerable help in correctly placing two barrels together, and the man who has a suspicion that his two barrels are not shooting to center can test that out by putting up a six inch bull at thirty yards, fixing his tubes in a rest and sighting through them..."
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Old May 7, 2011, 01:11 PM   #48
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Actually regulation of sxs double shotguns is a much overstated thing. The idea that SxS shotguns whoever makes them are regulated to shoot both barrels to the same point of aim at some predetermined distance is a fallacy.
Incorrect, at least on top tier quality guns. On bottom rung cheap guns from Russia and Turkey, you'll be lucky if they shoot in the same time zone.

Ask the folks at Purdey or H&H about regulating barrels
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Old May 7, 2011, 04:08 PM   #49
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Actually it is correct and the folks at Purdy and H&H would tell you that shotguns are layed up not regulated. Double rifles are regulated.
Stop and think about it for a bit how useful would a shotgun that was limited to one load only be.

Also the so called cheap guns from Russia and Turkey shoot very well actually. The formulas for laying up SxS shotguns regarding barrel length, weight, convergance vs range of charges for the guage are pretty well known.

Interesting that a few months ago the History channel had an hour long program at Holland and Holland on constructing a "bespoken" SxS shotgun that went into detail showing the construction and laying up of the barrels, the machining and hand fitting of the action and stocking the gun. They did not regulate it and a "bespoken" gun is about as high tier as you can get.

Last edited by denster; May 7, 2011 at 04:31 PM.
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Old May 7, 2011, 05:11 PM   #50
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Regarding the quote from Charles Askins. He was a colorful character. However the quotation shows he had a profound misunderstanding of that aspect of shotgunning. Particularly the part about putting a target up at 30yds and sighting through the bores. That is just so much bologny. It is not important where the muzzles are pointing when the trigger is pulled but where they are pointing when the charge leaves the barrel.
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