The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 12, 2000, 11:33 AM   #1
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
You and your date arrived late at the best restaurant in town, so you had to park your fully loaded Lexus LS 400 at the far end of the lot. You are wearing an Armani suit and a Rolex. She is wearing an original Isaac Mizrahi dress, three inch Ferragamo heels, and considerable diamonds.

On the way in, you noticed a 1982 Camaro in the lot with three scruffy looking guys just sitting in it. One is wearing a baseball cap backwards.

An hour and a half later, you come out of the reataurant. There is a guy behind the wheel of the Camaro but no passengers. As you approach your car, another car on the street beyond makes a turn. Its headlights shine through your car windows and show the shadow of someone crouching down behind your car, with a baseball cap turned backwards. He appears to have an object in his hand that look an awful lot like a 9mm Lorcin from the shadow. You are still a dozen parking spaces away from your car.

You have a Glock 27 on your right hip and a spare mag on your left. Your car keys are in your left hand. Your date (bless her) is carrying a Galco purse containing a SIG P226 and OC spray. You both have CCW permits and did a week together at Lethal Force Institute last month. You are not carryng a cell phone. You do have a Surefire flashlight.

You tell your date to get a grip on her SIG and be ready to cover your line of retreat, because you have decided what to do. What is your very first action?

(This is a trick question, of course.)
David Scott is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 11:52 AM   #2
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
Threat assessment made and decision made to retreat(your words)...I would quickly scan the rest of the parking lot with special attention paid to the retreat route and all the hard cover points.

First hard cover would be the nearest one possible and if possible, somewhere where you could keep an eye out on both individuals (the one in the Camaro and the one behind your car.)
To get the jump on them, I would make like I forgot something and say loudly, that you left something in the restaurant and how the both of you need to return there.
Hand stays on gun to return immediate fire or to lay down covering fire , until you reach the restaurant to call in the cavalry.

Just as an aside, some 25+ years ago, I asked my wife to watch my back when I was loading in some groceries in the back seat. (We were in a questionable neighborhood)
Imagine my surprise when I stood up to see her dutifully standing on the sidewalk intently staring at my back(not looking right or left at any of the passer's by. When I asked her what she was doing, she said, "I'm watching your back just like you asked."

She now carries a S & Klinton 3913 everyday and does well with it. : :
LASur5r is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 01:39 PM   #3
Phillip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 1999
Location: TX
Posts: 403
What, no valet parking?
Walk back to the restaurant, speak with the maitre 'd and inform him that the police need to be called to check some supsicious persons in the parking lot. Inform the police that a gun was seen on one of the suspects and that patrons of the restaurant are possibly in danger.
Barring that, send out the sous chef or one of the bus boys to draw fire for you
Phillip is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 02:07 PM   #4
Gunslinger
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
First I would quickly scan the parking lot for police. No, not to look for help. I've been looking over my shoulder for police ever since I started engaging in the illegal activities that allowed my to buy the suit and diamonds for the woman....the Lexus is, of course, stolen since I don't make that kind of money even in my illegal California Condor smuggeling operation.
Then I quickly rescan the parking lot for Terri. If she catches me with "diamond gal" I'm in deep serious trouble.
In the absence of seeing either the police of Terri I ask "diamond gal" for her Sig and dump the Glock in the nearest dumpster.
I then use the Sig to steal the '82 Camaro from the driver so I'm driving a real car instead of a rice burner and hope that the guy hiding behind the Lexus registered his Lorcin so we may all feel safer at night.

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
Gunslinger is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 02:09 PM   #5
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Some good tactical evaluations but nobody's hit on the trick answer yet.....

I'll give y'all till 5PM EST.

David Scott is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 02:47 PM   #6
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
Dave Scott,
I think Gunslinger hit on the real threat here...he mentioned Terri, you're right, Gunslinger, if my wife caught me in that parking lot with Diamond Gal...whooooeee! I'd have to have at least a vest on to take care of the CM hits that she'd be sending my way. Then I'd need a matching helmet and goggles to go with the vest because she'd be doing "El Presidente" drills on me until I go down or the gong sounds (as in falling plates).
She'd be laying down some serious firepower, so the two potential BG's would escape...afterall, who wants to take on a woman whose love has been scorned.?
Come on, guys, 'fess up...you know the reaction when your girlfriend/wife has her eye on you and the ring through your nose...and some filly is trying to take you away from her...best thing a man can do is step back out of the way where he can't get hurt by no stray weapons...when women fight there are no holds barred.
Then just let the womenfolks have at it. When the smoke clears...those of you who know your wives...is there any doubt who's going to be taking you home?,
Meanwhile, if the two guys are BG's they'd make their escape...nobody would like to stick around if they've ever seen a woman get mad and start firing.
If the guys are undercover LEO's...once all the firing starts, they'd be tactically smart and back off to call in the reinforcements. In this case, you grab your wife because she is totally focussed on the "housebreaker" and you make your escape.
How's that one? :
LASur5r is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 03:06 PM   #7
Christopher II
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 1999
Location: Germantown, MD
Posts: 2,349
Where's the third guy???

Assuming he's disappeared into the aether, then I kind of like LASur5r's answer.

Waitasec - how could three scruffy guys fit into an '82 Camaro in the first place???

Later,
Chris

------------------
"TV what do I see, tell me who to believe, what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all??" - Incubus, Idiot Box
Christopher II is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 04:06 PM   #8
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Well, it's 5PM. Let's consider the situation. There is one BG in front of you, hiding behind your car. The guy in the Camaro is behind you, but he was still in the car. He's probably just the wheel man, a job often left to the least aggressive and dangerous of the BGs.

As Chris points out, we don't know where the third guy is, but it's a fair bet he's between you and the car, planning to jump out and cut off your retreat when you walk past him and approach your Lexus. You are still 12 parking spaces away, that's over 60 feet. It's likely he would position himself closer

Here's the trick. Your car keys are in your left hand. A fully loaded Lexus has an alarm system and there is a panic button on the key fob.

You press the panic button. The car's lights start flashing and the siren goes off. This has several effects. One, it disorients and probably deafens the guy hiding behind your car. He has lost the element of surpise, and you have gained it. Two, the lights illuminate the guy behind the car, and if the missing bad guy is between you and the car the flashing lights will backlight him if he moves out against you. Three, it causes a ruckus and draws attention, things BGs don't like.

Now that you have sprung this on the BGs, you draw both weapons, come to Ready, go back to back and retreat to the restaurant. If the guy in the Camaro comes out against you, you can engage, but odds are he bailed out and left his buddies stranded as soon as the alarm went off, or when he saw the drawn guns.

The moral of the story is to use EVERYTHING you can to your advantage.
David Scott is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 05:28 PM   #9
LawDog
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: September 15, 1999
Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 4,194
I know about Ford pick-ups, I don't know anything about a Lexus.

LawDog
LawDog is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 05:56 PM   #10
MTAA
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2000
Location: CA
Posts: 447
Oh geez, my fully loaded pinto is not equipped with alarm ! How silly of me.

Here's how I would of handled the situation,
based on the crass, nouveau riche description of these two old yuppies (You did say Isaac Mizrahi and Armani ? Geezers)

Upon noticing the hat turned backwards, I would lament this fashion faux pas to my ag-ed date, telling her that Suspect A is either a frat boy from the land that time forgot, or Fred Durst. If it was Fred Durst, he'd probably acknowledge my deductive prowess and give up, if not, I would move to Plan B. Hmm, based on the description we can assume a few things, one, these are new to California dot commers, otherwise they wouldn't be driving Japanese. Two, they didn't Valet, bad move, once again, someone isn't used to money and protecting their assets. Three, since they are in CA, the weapons are illegally concealed, this is where plan B comes into effect. I would have my date run and crouch behind the Lexus opposite Suspect A, then I would attach the Rolex to a piece of string torn from my Armani suit (The 80's are over, why not ?), I would toss the Rolex behind the Lexus near Suspect A's position, luring him out of his hiding spot. When Suspect A makes his way around the vehicle, I would have my date dig her three inch Ferragamo heels deep into Suspect A's skull. After shuffling that mess under the nearest LandCruiser/Navigator, I would casually toss Suspect A's bloodied hat onto the Camaro's winshield, waking up the two bozo's from their crack induced slumber.

My date and I would then drive home to our $1,000,000 2 bedroom town house in Palo Alto and watch taped episodes of "ThirtySomething".
MTAA is offline  
Old October 12, 2000, 08:42 PM   #11
EricO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 1998
Posts: 124
You guys crack me up! I love it!
EricO is offline  
Old October 13, 2000, 08:45 AM   #12
Bud1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2000
Posts: 194
I would shoot my date in the knee and run away screaming like a little girl.
Bud1 is offline  
Old October 13, 2000, 10:06 AM   #13
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
Bud1,
Thanks, Bud...1?
I forgot, whenever you get caught in a heavy duty trap, you leave a decoy ...misdirection. You recommended a perfect solution,except I'd drop her with a leg sweep...that way I don't give away my position with a gun flash.
Also the air is knocked out of her temporarily so she can't scream right away giving me time to grab her gun (extra) and the diamonds in case I have to use it to buy them off in case they corner me.
Then I get out of there before she screams drawing their attention to her while I get away. Simple? : :
LASur5r is offline  
Old October 13, 2000, 10:22 AM   #14
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Oy vey, you guys have issues. Taking down your date to serve as a decoy? How could you? I'm outraged that any self-respecting TFLer would pass up a perfectly good body shield.
David Scott is offline  
Old October 14, 2000, 01:55 PM   #15
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,521
Don't most state's laws require some effort to escape, in advance of action? It seems to me that if a potential/probable threat is identified at 20 yards or so, discretion is the legal part of valor.

So, Method Acting 101; "Oh, drat! I must telephone Mater!" and turn and re-enter the restaurant...Etc., etc.

You might be competent enough to deal with the two BGs away from the Camaro. But if the Camaro's driver brings up his shotgun...

Art
Art Eatman is offline  
Old October 15, 2000, 04:58 PM   #16
Correia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 1998
Location: SLC Utah
Posts: 3,740
Dang, you guys are too funny!

Correia is offline  
Old October 16, 2000, 07:14 AM   #17
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Art,

Turning back to the restaurant involves turning your back on the BG behind the car. The one in the Camaro is already between you and the restaurant. You don't know where the other guy is.

Retreat with no other action may not be safe.
David Scott is offline  
Old October 17, 2000, 12:56 AM   #18
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
If you feel that seriously threatened, suddenly duck between 2 parked cars and fire one or two shots into the air. Guarenteed to get everyone in the area calling the cops. And the BGs now know that you're armed and the police are on the way. Last thing BGs want is cops so they'll split out of the area ASAP.

Wait a minute or so till you see the BGs burn rubber then split before the cops show up.

You were certainly in the right to cut the BGs plans off at the knees but the cops aren't going to see it that way. Depending on the cops, the local laws, and if you have a permit, you may get anything from a warning to arrested. But at least you won't have a body to account for because you shot someone.
nbk2000 is offline  
Old October 17, 2000, 02:20 AM   #19
Jeff Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 1998
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,753
Well, one potential fly in the ointment ... the Lexus alarm has a distance limitation, and I'd say that 60 feet is pretty close to the limit from what I've seen.

My guess is that if you acted as though you left something in the restaurant, the BG's would patiently await your return. A cute announcement would be 'Damn! I left my wallet on the table!'

Regards from AZ
Jeff Thomas is offline  
Old October 18, 2000, 09:01 AM   #20
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
I doubt the wallet thing would stop them because most rich people don't carry a lot of cash, they all use credit cards which would be cancelled within a very short time, and thus worthless to a BG.

What they'd be going for is the keys to your car (lots of money at the chop shop), your clothes (expensive designer stuff), jewelry (BGs favorite), and your date (obvious). Probable progression of events: you and date stopped at gun point, forced into your own car with BGs in front and back (date held hostage while you drive) while you drive to your house so they can loot it of everything.

Once they're done, your date gets trussed up like a turkey while you're driven to bank to pull out some money. Then you're turkeyed up. If you're lucky they don't kill you or rape your date.

Now you should try the "wallet" trick if you think it might work, but be ready to shot it out if they don't care about your wallet.
nbk2000 is offline  
Old October 18, 2000, 09:00 PM   #21
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,521
Okay, David, the Camaro is between me and the restaurant. But, one guy. I have some distance between me and the dynamic duo over by my car.

I'd try for the restaurant, but I'd draw and hold the pistol out of the driver's view. My ears are the most important part of the deal, listening for the duo behind me.

Play it as it goes; explain to date what's going down--hoping she's a rational type...

In the real world, and it's my wife with me, shame on any of those doofuses. That poor driver would probably go deaf from the bruises in his ear, what with her pistol screwed into it. Some of those south Georgia swamp-gals are plumb mean!

Q: "How do you draw, from your purse?"
A: "I don't. Stores all over town sell purses." It's an attitude thing.

Regards, Art
Art Eatman is offline  
Old October 18, 2000, 11:46 PM   #22
Gunslinger
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
Q: "How do you draw, from your purse?"
A: "I don't. Stores all over town sell purses." It's an attitude thing.


Art, that's classical. I love it!

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
Gunslinger is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10995 seconds with 7 queries