Recomend a good coach gun...

mellow_c · April 28, 2011, 11:53 PM

Hello folks. I'd like some recommendations for a good 12 gauge double barrel side by side coach style shotgun. I was thinking I'd like something with external hammers, but I could do without.

I dont know whats out there. I'm not concerned about price. Cheap is good, but I'd like quality and durability as well. Thanks!

Willie Lowman · April 29, 2011, 07:38 AM

From my limited experience I will tell you what to avoid.

The Stoeger "double defense" is a sorry excuse for a shotgun covered with a layer of black paint. The one example I have handled had just about every thing go wrong with it that could go wrong in one day. The stock got loose, both barrels would fire unexpectedly. One of those stupid rails fell off of it... Please don't buy one of these.

.300 Weatherby Mag · April 29, 2011, 05:17 PM

CZ

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/...case-hardened/
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/hammer-classic/

Crunchy Frog · April 29, 2011, 06:16 PM

The "hammer double" shotguns are cool but slower to operate if you are interested in cowboy action shooting (which you should be).

There is a category in SASS called Classic Cowboy which requires a hammered double or lever action shotgun.

The best deal going (price and quality) in a hammerless coach gun is the Baikal which just recently became available again. Here's a good source: http://ultona.110mb.com/Shotguns.htm

A hammered Baikal is also available but the price is higher. Here it is on the importer's website: http://www.eaacorp.com/pdfs/guns/BaikalMP220F.pdf

At the top of Rezac's shotgun page you'll see a thumbnail photo of a reproduction of an 1878 Colt hammer double. Rezac must be out of them but here's a photo on Taylor & Company's website:http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfCoachGun.tpl

The 1878s have a good reputation with cowboy shooters. They have a nice classic look.

cracked91 · April 29, 2011, 06:51 PM

Had a Stoeger Nickel Coachgun for about 4 years, approx 500 rounds without a hiccup. Sold it to get a winch for my jeep. Replaced it with a Stoeger Condor Outback, which has about 200 rounds through it, no problems.

mnero · April 29, 2011, 10:58 PM

I have two of the stoeger Double defense one 12 one 20. The stock and rails are fine although IMO the rails are pointless, especially the top one. The 12 gauge misfires about 1 in 5 shots; the 20 has been flawless. I would stay away from the Double Defense. I removed the fluorescent bead sight; A coach gun hardly requires a sight and a fluorescent one

(edit)Well so much for flawless; took the 20 out today and it fired both barrels at once. I was shooting from the hip, thankfully and it did make a most satisfying mess of the target.

mellow_c · April 30, 2011, 02:46 AM

Crunchy Frog... The link you put up for the hammerless Baikal didnt work... I'd like to know more about that. The fact that the hammers will slow you down is really a pretty big "issue" when I think about it. I'd like to shoot a double coach gun quickly, and hammers just wont allow that without a LOT of practice.

On the other hand, hammers are still neat. and That CZ was a fine looking Coach gun. Something I'd be proud to buy and own for the rest of my days!!!

Thanks so much for the posts everyone!

Crunchy Frog · April 30, 2011, 11:28 AM

It looks like Phil J. Rezac's website is down temporarily. There was a notation on his home page saying he was having issues with his web host. Try the link again or Google his name. He also sells his guns on Gunbroker and on GunsAmerica but I don't see any of his ads posted today.

The importer is EAA; you can access GunGenie from its website and perhaps find a local dealer. Here is EAA's website: http://www.eaacorp.com/

These guns were imported at one time as the Remington Spartan, later as the EAA Bounty Hunter II. Now they are just sold under Baikal if you want to search GunBroker or whatever. MSRP is in the low $300s so you might be able to get one at about $300-ish. They were not imported for a while and just recently became available again and may be a little hard to find.

Personally I'd take this over a Stoeger any day. It's less expensive than a Stoeger to boot.

I have a CZ rifle that I like and agree that the CZ hammer coach is a nice looking gun but they are really stiff out of the box. Now most all shotguns need some tweaking to get them to "run" right for CAS but the CZs are tighter out of the box than the TNN 1878. I've not handled the hammered Baikal to compare it. The CZ is considerably more expensive than the other two.

For CAS the drawback of the CZ is the locking tab (whatever it's called) that protudes between the chambers. The Baikals, Stoegers, TNN and others have a flat breech face and are much easier to load quickly.

The most coveted hammerless doubles in CAS are the SKB and the Browning BSS. These are single trigger guns. Both are discontinued so you are talking big bucks ($1500 perhaps) to find one and get it set up.

There is a cowboy on the SASS Wire who bought a Yildiz single trigger double from Academy Sports and is sending it to one of the cowboy gunsmiths (Goatneck Clem) to have it cut down and slicked up. The Yildiz is a Turkish shotgun (as is the CZ which is made by Huglu) with pretty nice finish and it's a single trigger design. Academy sells them for less than $500 so this might end up being a good midpriced choice.

The Baikals and TNNs are double trigger models. Those are mechanically simpler and therefore less expensive than a single trigger design. A double trigger gun can be fired quickly with a little practice.

I am no expert, just been shooting CAS for a little over a year. Feel free to send me a PM if you want more info.

mellow_c · May 1, 2011, 03:56 AM

That should be enough to get my by for now. I'm not looking to buy anytime soon, so I should be able to look around based on what I've gotten here.

Thanks alot for the posts!

I'll be sure to PM ya if I have any other questions Crunch

As for CAS... yeah, I'd love to do it... and I've thought about it. but just like reloading, I dont have time. I've got too many hobbies as it is.

Thats not to say I dont dress up like a cowboy every great once in a while and take out a lever gun and a single action revolver or two

ClydeFrog · May 1, 2011, 04:14 AM

While killing time in my local metro area's big B&N location, I read through the latest copy of Personal Defense. I bought the 2010 issue and it's worth the $$$. They have a few updates/tech news about 12ga home protection shotguns. I don't recall the model names but a few were high tech & had 1913 rails, white lights, coatings, rubber stocks, etc.
A side by side 12ga is not my 1st pick but it could "ride the river" as some US Border Patrol agents & sheriff deputies used to say...

.

ClydeFrog

rodent.22 · May 1, 2011, 06:37 AM

I've had a Stoeger Coach gun for about 4 years. Not one hiccup in all that time, sometimes have fired 100 rounds at a time. The blued finish is great, and has mildly figured wood, quite nice. For a cheap shotgun a very nice piece....

mnero · May 1, 2011, 09:58 AM

Those models with the double triggers are fine; stay away from the Double Defense. It is their latest SXS and they are poorly made. I have not read one positive review of them; except on their web site

denster · May 1, 2011, 11:33 AM

I'd have to go with the recommendation on the Baikal Bounty Hunter II. I have several and they are all great and built like tanks. The plus side on the 20Ga is that the way they are layed up they will shoot the inexpensive foster style slugs, both barrels, to the same point of aim. Yes they realy will. I have two set up as poor mans double rifles and both will keep Winchester 3/4OZ 1600fps slugs in a four inch group R&L at 60yds.

mellow_c · May 1, 2011, 05:56 PM

I'm thinking I'd like to get a double with 2 triggers and without external hammers...

athanasor · May 1, 2011, 08:33 PM

Here's what you might want to take a serious look at:

It's a Stoeger Supreme 12g, nickle plated and it goes bang every time I pull the trigger(s).

and it's cool looking.

Wilddog · May 1, 2011, 09:32 PM

I see a lot about different guns, but what about the JW 2000? Are they any good? Almost everywhere I look on the WEB that sells them seem to be "out of stock". Are they made by Norinco? Price sure is right.

Crunchy Frog · May 1, 2011, 09:36 PM

Let me say that I wasn't intending to bash the Stoeger or people who own them. Some of my best friends are Stoeger [owners]!

Seriously the Stoegers are very popular in CAS. If they were junk they would not be.

I was just expressing my opinion that given the choice between the Baikal and the Stoeger I would take the latter.

mellow_c · May 2, 2011, 01:27 AM

Do any of these guns automatically eject the shells when you open the action after firing? Or do you have to pull them out with your hand?

I like the looks of the Baikal Bounty Hunter II, but mostly all the ones I see on the net are 20" barrels. I'd like something shorter. I was thinking with it being a "coach gun" the shorter the better.

But it looks like even the CZ has a 20 inch barrel. hmmmm....

gyvel · May 2, 2011, 04:09 AM

Look around for a Rossi. Cool guns and reasonably well made. Try Gunbroker and the other websites.

Carne Frio · May 2, 2011, 07:32 PM

The Rossi and Norinco external hammer coach guns are both
good to go. The Rossi is higher quality and costs more.
Also, both are only available in the used gun market.

SSgt Facebreaker · May 3, 2011, 03:57 AM

I have a Spartan (imported by Remington) hammerless coach gun that has worked well for me, although I confess that I mostly just use it when plinking. I paid about $275-$300 for it, on sale, a few years ago. It has two triggers, if that is a big issue for you.

Wilddog · May 3, 2011, 06:11 AM

I went out and bought a JW 2000 yesterday. I figured "you get what you pay for", but the Norinco looked pretty good for the money. I'm "pleasantly surprised" with the gun. It "locks up" better after a box of 2 3/4. The machine work is fine. The "bluing" is fine. The finish is much better than I expected being a Norinco because my SKS was a "Pig". I had a Rossi 20 ga. once and it was the best, but this 12 ga. is just fine for my money. As for the "choke", the barrels aren't marked so I'll just check that box, "Yes". What can I say at this point? I'll talk at you more about it after 10,000 rounds. OH, I should add, I got it "new in box" from the Big 5 in Poulsbo, WA for $259+tax.

bamaranger · May 8, 2011, 01:20 AM

My bounty hunter II is not well regulated, one barrel is close, the other is way off. No problem in down the hall distances, but a real pain at the range or afield.

The little wedge part of sheet metal that fits below the rib at the muzzle, between the barrels fell out early on, I fill the triangular hole resultant full of grease.

The action remains tight as a bank vault, but the gun is limited to bedroom distances.

denster · May 8, 2011, 06:08 AM

Bamaranger.

You didn't say but I'm guessing you have a 12 Guage and are refering to slugs. In any case with a side by side if you are a right handed shooter the left barrel is going to be close to point of aim and the right barrel shoots to the right. This is because the barrels are left and right of the centerline of the gun. In recoil the left barrel moves up and left and the right barrel moves up and right. For a right handed shooter this movement of the left barrel is impeded by the support hand.
In any case the biggest thing you can do to get them to shoot closer together on a stationary target is your stance. You need to take and English style squared off stance to the target not the American quartering stance that works fine with pumps autos and O/U. The second if it is slugs lyou are shooting is to get some of the Remington High Velocity slugs that is a 7/8 Oz slug at 1800fps. Without getting into a longwinded discussion about why that will also bring the shots closer together.
I'm dead serious about the stance thing try it next time you are at the range and see how much difference it makes.

bamaranger · May 13, 2011, 02:08 AM

Yes it is a 12 ga and the left barrel is close and the right barrel is high right.

I have a shot a few slugs through it, but not many. Recoil with full power ammo was not pleasant. The vast bulk of my shooting with the bounty Hunter II has been with low recoil OO buck, or various discount bird loads, the patterns being observed on old B-27 FBI targets. Total of appx 200 rds.

Your suggestions are interesting. I will square up and try it again some day. Actually have two extra full choke tubes (in addition to Mod and IC). It would be the worlds lightest and most portable two shot turkey gun if I could be satisfied with the point of aim/point of impact.

April 28, 2011, 11:53 PM	#1
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	Recomend a good coach gun... Hello folks. I'd like some recommendations for a good 12 gauge double barrel side by side coach style shotgun. I was thinking I'd like something with external hammers, but I could do without. I dont know whats out there. I'm not concerned about price. Cheap is good, but I'd like quality and durability as well. Thanks! Last edited by mellow_c; April 29, 2011 at 02:19 AM.

April 29, 2011, 07:38 AM	#2
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	From my limited experience I will tell you what to avoid. The Stoeger "double defense" is a sorry excuse for a shotgun covered with a layer of black paint. The one example I have handled had just about every thing go wrong with it that could go wrong in one day. The stock got loose, both barrels would fire unexpectedly. One of those stupid rails fell off of it... Please don't buy one of these. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

April 29, 2011, 10:58 PM	#6
mnero Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2011 Location: east coast Posts: 244	I have two of the stoeger Double defense one 12 one 20. The stock and rails are fine although IMO the rails are pointless, especially the top one. The 12 gauge misfires about 1 in 5 shots; the 20 has been flawless. I would stay away from the Double Defense. I removed the fluorescent bead sight; A coach gun hardly requires a sight and a fluorescent one (edit)Well so much for flawless; took the 20 out today and it fired both barrels at once. I was shooting from the hip, thankfully and it did make a most satisfying mess of the target. Last edited by mnero; April 30, 2011 at 03:54 PM.

May 1, 2011, 04:14 AM	#10
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Personal Defense magazine... While killing time in my local metro area's big B&N location, I read through the latest copy of Personal Defense. I bought the 2010 issue and it's worth the $$$. They have a few updates/tech news about 12ga home protection shotguns. I don't recall the model names but a few were high tech & had 1913 rails, white lights, coatings, rubber stocks, etc. A side by side 12ga is not my 1st pick but it could "ride the river" as some US Border Patrol agents & sheriff deputies used to say... . ClydeFrog

May 1, 2011, 06:37 AM	#11
rodent.22 Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2010 Location: virginia woods Posts: 129	I've had a Stoeger Coach gun for about 4 years. Not one hiccup in all that time, sometimes have fired 100 rounds at a time. The blued finish is great, and has mildly figured wood, quite nice. For a cheap shotgun a very nice piece.... Last edited by rodent.22; December 2, 2014 at 12:52 PM.

April 29, 2011, 05:17 PM	#3
.300 Weatherby Mag Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2008 Posts: 1,777	CZ http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/...case-hardened/ http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/hammer-classic/

April 29, 2011, 06:16 PM	#4
Crunchy Frog Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2008 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 591	The "hammer double" shotguns are cool but slower to operate if you are interested in cowboy action shooting (which you should be). There is a category in SASS called Classic Cowboy which requires a hammered double or lever action shotgun. The best deal going (price and quality) in a hammerless coach gun is the Baikal which just recently became available again. Here's a good source: http://ultona.110mb.com/Shotguns.htm A hammered Baikal is also available but the price is higher. Here it is on the importer's website: http://www.eaacorp.com/pdfs/guns/BaikalMP220F.pdf At the top of Rezac's shotgun page you'll see a thumbnail photo of a reproduction of an 1878 Colt hammer double. Rezac must be out of them but here's a photo on Taylor & Company's website:http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfCoachGun.tpl The 1878s have a good reputation with cowboy shooters. They have a nice classic look.

April 29, 2011, 06:51 PM	#5
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Had a Stoeger Nickel Coachgun for about 4 years, approx 500 rounds without a hiccup. Sold it to get a winch for my jeep. Replaced it with a Stoeger Condor Outback, which has about 200 rounds through it, no problems.

April 30, 2011, 02:46 AM	#7
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	Crunchy Frog... The link you put up for the hammerless Baikal didnt work... I'd like to know more about that. The fact that the hammers will slow you down is really a pretty big "issue" when I think about it. I'd like to shoot a double coach gun quickly, and hammers just wont allow that without a LOT of practice. On the other hand, hammers are still neat. and That CZ was a fine looking Coach gun. Something I'd be proud to buy and own for the rest of my days!!! Thanks so much for the posts everyone!

April 30, 2011, 11:28 AM	#8
Crunchy Frog Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2008 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 591	It looks like Phil J. Rezac's website is down temporarily. There was a notation on his home page saying he was having issues with his web host. Try the link again or Google his name. He also sells his guns on Gunbroker and on GunsAmerica but I don't see any of his ads posted today. The importer is EAA; you can access GunGenie from its website and perhaps find a local dealer. Here is EAA's website: http://www.eaacorp.com/ These guns were imported at one time as the Remington Spartan, later as the EAA Bounty Hunter II. Now they are just sold under Baikal if you want to search GunBroker or whatever. MSRP is in the low $300s so you might be able to get one at about $300-ish. They were not imported for a while and just recently became available again and may be a little hard to find. Personally I'd take this over a Stoeger any day. It's less expensive than a Stoeger to boot. I have a CZ rifle that I like and agree that the CZ hammer coach is a nice looking gun but they are really stiff out of the box. Now most all shotguns need some tweaking to get them to "run" right for CAS but the CZs are tighter out of the box than the TNN 1878. I've not handled the hammered Baikal to compare it. The CZ is considerably more expensive than the other two. For CAS the drawback of the CZ is the locking tab (whatever it's called) that protudes between the chambers. The Baikals, Stoegers, TNN and others have a flat breech face and are much easier to load quickly. The most coveted hammerless doubles in CAS are the SKB and the Browning BSS. These are single trigger guns. Both are discontinued so you are talking big bucks ($1500 perhaps) to find one and get it set up. There is a cowboy on the SASS Wire who bought a Yildiz single trigger double from Academy Sports and is sending it to one of the cowboy gunsmiths (Goatneck Clem) to have it cut down and slicked up. The Yildiz is a Turkish shotgun (as is the CZ which is made by Huglu) with pretty nice finish and it's a single trigger design. Academy sells them for less than $500 so this might end up being a good midpriced choice. The Baikals and TNNs are double trigger models. Those are mechanically simpler and therefore less expensive than a single trigger design. A double trigger gun can be fired quickly with a little practice. I am no expert, just been shooting CAS for a little over a year. Feel free to send me a PM if you want more info.

May 1, 2011, 03:56 AM	#9
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	That should be enough to get my by for now. I'm not looking to buy anytime soon, so I should be able to look around based on what I've gotten here. Thanks alot for the posts! I'll be sure to PM ya if I have any other questions Crunch As for CAS... yeah, I'd love to do it... and I've thought about it. but just like reloading, I dont have time. I've got too many hobbies as it is. Thats not to say I dont dress up like a cowboy every great once in a while and take out a lever gun and a single action revolver or two

May 1, 2011, 09:58 AM	#12
mnero Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2011 Location: east coast Posts: 244	Those models with the double triggers are fine; stay away from the Double Defense. It is their latest SXS and they are poorly made. I have not read one positive review of them; except on their web site

May 1, 2011, 11:33 AM	#13
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	I'd have to go with the recommendation on the Baikal Bounty Hunter II. I have several and they are all great and built like tanks. The plus side on the 20Ga is that the way they are layed up they will shoot the inexpensive foster style slugs, both barrels, to the same point of aim. Yes they realy will. I have two set up as poor mans double rifles and both will keep Winchester 3/4OZ 1600fps slugs in a four inch group R&L at 60yds.

May 1, 2011, 05:56 PM	#14
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	I'm thinking I'd like to get a double with 2 triggers and without external hammers...

May 1, 2011, 08:33 PM	#15
athanasor Member Join Date: September 5, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 55	Here's what you might want to take a serious look at: It's a Stoeger Supreme 12g, nickle plated and it goes bang every time I pull the trigger(s). and it's cool looking.

May 1, 2011, 09:32 PM	#16
Wilddog Junior Member Join Date: May 1, 2011 Location: NorthWest Posts: 4	How is the JW 2000 I see a lot about different guns, but what about the JW 2000? Are they any good? Almost everywhere I look on the WEB that sells them seem to be "out of stock". Are they made by Norinco? Price sure is right.

May 1, 2011, 09:36 PM	#17
Crunchy Frog Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2008 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 591	Let me say that I wasn't intending to bash the Stoeger or people who own them. Some of my best friends are Stoeger [owners]! Seriously the Stoegers are very popular in CAS. If they were junk they would not be. I was just expressing my opinion that given the choice between the Baikal and the Stoeger I would take the latter.

May 2, 2011, 01:27 AM	#18
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	Do any of these guns automatically eject the shells when you open the action after firing? Or do you have to pull them out with your hand? I like the looks of the Baikal Bounty Hunter II, but mostly all the ones I see on the net are 20" barrels. I'd like something shorter. I was thinking with it being a "coach gun" the shorter the better. But it looks like even the CZ has a 20 inch barrel. hmmmm.... Last edited by mellow_c; May 2, 2011 at 01:32 AM.

May 2, 2011, 04:09 AM	#19
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Look around for a Rossi. Cool guns and reasonably well made. Try Gunbroker and the other websites.

May 2, 2011, 07:32 PM	#20
Carne Frio Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2008 Location: Near Fairbanks Alaska Posts: 829	The Rossi and Norinco external hammer coach guns are both good to go. The Rossi is higher quality and costs more. Also, both are only available in the used gun market.

May 3, 2011, 03:57 AM	#21
SSgt Facebreaker Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2010 Location: Utah Posts: 100	I have a Spartan (imported by Remington) hammerless coach gun that has worked well for me, although I confess that I mostly just use it when plinking. I paid about $275-$300 for it, on sale, a few years ago. It has two triggers, if that is a big issue for you.

May 3, 2011, 06:11 AM	#22
Wilddog Junior Member Join Date: May 1, 2011 Location: NorthWest Posts: 4	JW 2000 I went out and bought a JW 2000 yesterday. I figured "you get what you pay for", but the Norinco looked pretty good for the money. I'm "pleasantly surprised" with the gun. It "locks up" better after a box of 2 3/4. The machine work is fine. The "bluing" is fine. The finish is much better than I expected being a Norinco because my SKS was a "Pig". I had a Rossi 20 ga. once and it was the best, but this 12 ga. is just fine for my money. As for the "choke", the barrels aren't marked so I'll just check that box, "Yes". What can I say at this point? I'll talk at you more about it after 10,000 rounds. OH, I should add, I got it "new in box" from the Big 5 in Poulsbo, WA for $259+tax.

May 8, 2011, 01:20 AM	#23
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	Baikal My bounty hunter II is not well regulated, one barrel is close, the other is way off. No problem in down the hall distances, but a real pain at the range or afield. The little wedge part of sheet metal that fits below the rib at the muzzle, between the barrels fell out early on, I fill the triangular hole resultant full of grease. The action remains tight as a bank vault, but the gun is limited to bedroom distances.

May 8, 2011, 06:08 AM	#24
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	Bamaranger. You didn't say but I'm guessing you have a 12 Guage and are refering to slugs. In any case with a side by side if you are a right handed shooter the left barrel is going to be close to point of aim and the right barrel shoots to the right. This is because the barrels are left and right of the centerline of the gun. In recoil the left barrel moves up and left and the right barrel moves up and right. For a right handed shooter this movement of the left barrel is impeded by the support hand. In any case the biggest thing you can do to get them to shoot closer together on a stationary target is your stance. You need to take and English style squared off stance to the target not the American quartering stance that works fine with pumps autos and O/U. The second if it is slugs lyou are shooting is to get some of the Remington High Velocity slugs that is a 7/8 Oz slug at 1800fps. Without getting into a longwinded discussion about why that will also bring the shots closer together. I'm dead serious about the stance thing try it next time you are at the range and see how much difference it makes.

May 13, 2011, 02:08 AM	#25
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	well well Yes it is a 12 ga and the left barrel is close and the right barrel is high right. I have a shot a few slugs through it, but not many. Recoil with full power ammo was not pleasant. The vast bulk of my shooting with the bounty Hunter II has been with low recoil OO buck, or various discount bird loads, the patterns being observed on old B-27 FBI targets. Total of appx 200 rds. Your suggestions are interesting. I will square up and try it again some day. Actually have two extra full choke tubes (in addition to Mod and IC). It would be the worlds lightest and most portable two shot turkey gun if I could be satisfied with the point of aim/point of impact.